Analysis of Yuan Shao

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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby zirroxas » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:40 am

Li_Shengsun wrote:Weird, the description on Guandu battle seems doesnt mention what Cao Cao do to Yuan Shao's men after the raid on Wu Chao, although i do remember read somewhere, where Cao Cao cut off the noses of Yuan Shao's dead soldiers and general, mixed them with noses and lips of an oxen and horses then send it to Yuan Shao's camp as form of intimidation.


It's a Cao Man Zhuan annotation, so snort a line of salt before indulging. Rafe rightfully brings up the logistical problems that such an endeavor would entail, given their exposed position and how much else they had to do that night.

Since the fall of Wuchao and the surrender of the troops under Zhang He and Gao Lan was probably more than enough of a morale shock on its own to produce the resulting rout, I think Rafe's writing this one off as just another cliched later addition is probably correct.
I don't underrate the value of military knowledge, but if men make war in slavish obedience to rules, they will fail. - Ulysses S. Grant
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:Weird, the description on Guandu battle seems doesnt mention what Cao Cao do to Yuan Shao's men after the raid on Wu Chao, although i do remember read somewhere, where Cao Cao cut off the noses of Yuan Shao's dead soldiers and general, mixed them with noses and lips of an oxen and horses then send it to Yuan Shao's camp as form of intimidation.

Its a shame that Yuan Shao slaughtered those 'bandits' instead of gaining their support. He could use some experienced fighter other than Qu Yi really. Especially during Guandu battle. But, judging his personality, even if he did gain those bandits support, they mightve ended like Lu Bu is.


I think it is in the ZZTJ but I didn't want to spend a paragraph or two explaining the bias of the Cao Man Zhuan (seen as a... hostile work which I believe was written by a Wu scholar) where it is from and why the claim is highly questionable for the Yuan case, it didn't feel relevant Yuan decision making and reaction. I probably would have done if a Cao Cao case and I can discuss it here

That requires the Black Mountain Bandits to give up their independence and surrender, not long after they had tried to seize Yuan Shao's lands. Even then, their version of surrender was "we keep our local independence, bow our heads and won't attack you" so wouldn't have been that helpful long term
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Chalmers » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:17 pm

Are we sure this Black Mountain Bandits conditional surrender went down as you described it by the way? I'm simply asking since it doesn't add up somehow in my mind.
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:58 pm

Welcome to the forum Chalmers

Chalmers wrote:Are we sure this Black Mountain Bandits conditional surrender went down as you described it by the way? I'm simply asking since it doesn't add up somehow in my mind.


Sorry, which bit are you referring to? The partial surrender to Emperor Ling's Han?
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Kongde » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:06 am

Dong Zhou wrote: Yuan She was tortured and killed in 179 but the Yuan clan were untouched.


Would you happen to know the reason for this? I assume it would've been put in there, but I am kind of curious about this. How was it that only Yuan She was tortured and killed? I don't know if it has any relevancy, but in that same paragraph from where I quoted, you mentioned that Yuan Feng died in 179. Would this happen to have any relation as to why Yuan She was tortured and killed?
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:14 pm

Kongde wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote: Yuan She was tortured and killed in 179 but the Yuan clan were untouched.


Would you happen to know the reason for this? I assume it would've been put in there, but I am kind of curious about this. How was it that only Yuan She was tortured and killed? I don't know if it has any relevancy, but in that same paragraph from where I quoted, you mentioned that Yuan Feng died in 179. Would this happen to have any relation as to why Yuan She was tortured and killed?


I didn't as didn't feel it was relevant to Yuan Shao's life. New Director of Retainers Yang Qiu accuses leading eunuch Wang Fu of corruption and treason then brought down his faction as an attempt to weaken the eunuchs, Yuan She's fall would indicate he was seen as part of Wang Fu's faction

There is no connection mentioned in the histories and given the major honours given on his death, it is doubtful he was damaged by Yuan She's fall.
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Xu Huang fan » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:12 pm

whew, what a read, couldn't do it all in one sitting but it was a fantastic read, definately gave me more insight to Yuan Shao's younger days and makes me feel less guilty for executing gongsun zan in my current ROT3KXI run.
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:55 pm

executing Gongsun Zan is your moral duty in all games :P
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Sakae Wu » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:03 am

Dong Zhou wrote:executing Gongsun Zan is your moral duty in all games :P


100% agreed. One of the few officers I never think twice about.

Thanks for the good work on the Yuan Shao analysis, a lot of interesting info I hadn't known about.
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby chemical_art » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:04 am

I had to create an account just to express thanks for writing this. As someone who comes and goes on this subject for almost a decade, seeing the OP continue to drive new information is a treasure.

I frankly have no idea how often I would post on this forum, simply because my knowledge is surface level at best, but I hope that makes it all the more impactful when I say I don't regret taking the time to make an account, for I do wish to express thanks.

Good fortunes and please continue the good work, I am sure there are many others like me who pass like the wind: Cannot be seen, barely felt. But we exist and your work impacts us for the better.

Thank you.
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