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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby wk123 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:42 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:I wouldn't say that Zhuge Liang was any more of a warmonger than anyone else really. He cared about domestic affairs quite a lot, and always made sure the state was maintained well before heading off. The issue always came in execution. Transporting supplies through the gallery roads, the great distance it took, the superior terrain for Imperial Wei, the better generals: there wasn't much he could do to overcome that barring a miracle.

He's not The King of Yan who commands rivers to defeat Wei after all. :wink:

As for Shu's fate if Liu Bei survived, I can't say. I'm not really one for what-if's. Shu may have been in a better spot, it's perhaps possible. But that all depends on how open Liu Bei is to renewing the Sun-Liu Alliance, and if he would entrust someone else more on military matters than Zhuge Liang as he had done previously with Pang Tong, Fa Zheng and Huang Quan. If I recall he named Li Yan as the one to take over militarily after his death and Li Yan was a man of talent, though he had his poor qualities that Zhuge Liang didn't have. It's a complex thing to think about and I'm sure someone more read on Shu might be able to give a better answer.


Thank you! I wish there was a Like button in this forum.

I forget about the losses of PT, FZ, HQ, and how they would have allowed ZGL to lead behind the scenes vs frontline.

Warmonger might be a harsh term, but I feel Shu as a country "recovers" post-war at a far slower pace than Wei or Wu. Resources should have been focused on defensive positions rather than invasions.

I have many what-if questions but I will take them to that thread.
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby Han » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:33 pm

wk123 wrote:
DaoLunOfShiji wrote:I wouldn't say that Zhuge Liang was any more of a warmonger than anyone else really. He cared about domestic affairs quite a lot, and always made sure the state was maintained well before heading off. The issue always came in execution. Transporting supplies through the gallery roads, the great distance it took, the superior terrain for Imperial Wei, the better generals: there wasn't much he could do to overcome that barring a miracle.

He's not The King of Yan who commands rivers to defeat Wei after all. :wink:

As for Shu's fate if Liu Bei survived, I can't say. I'm not really one for what-if's. Shu may have been in a better spot, it's perhaps possible. But that all depends on how open Liu Bei is to renewing the Sun-Liu Alliance, and if he would entrust someone else more on military matters than Zhuge Liang as he had done previously with Pang Tong, Fa Zheng and Huang Quan. If I recall he named Li Yan as the one to take over militarily after his death and Li Yan was a man of talent, though he had his poor qualities that Zhuge Liang didn't have. It's a complex thing to think about and I'm sure someone more read on Shu might be able to give a better answer.


Thank you! I wish there was a Like button in this forum.

I forget about the losses of PT, FZ, HQ, and how they would have allowed ZGL to lead behind the scenes vs frontline.

Warmonger might be a harsh term, but I feel Shu as a country "recovers" post-war at a far slower pace than Wei or Wu. Resources should have been focused on defensive positions rather than invasions.

I have many what-if questions but I will take them to that thread.


Zhuge Liang was a great military general. But he was very slow in commanding troops. Possibly because of terrain or horses or likely both. Liu Bei in contrast was a very decisive general. The most skilled out of every Shu Han general. He knew when to attack, when to pull back when to retreat and how to lead. He also had decades of experience fighting in different geographical locations like the walled cities of Central China, the Mountains of Sichuan and Hanzhong, the Rivers and lakes of JingXiang and so on and so forth. RDC also notes that Liu Bei was a skilled horseman as he was a Northener. Liu Bei also had experience working/commanding different kind of troops ranging from ragtag bandits of Xu and Jing to elite corps(think Chen Dao).

So with all this said, I much much prefer Liu Bei chances over ZGL when it came from attacking out of Hanzhong. All the more if he attacked while Ma Chao who had connections with the ethnic minorities was still alive and active.

However, it is important to note that only twice did a Southern Chinese Power reunify China Proper. The Ming Dynasty which emerged from the chaos of the Yuan and the KMT with Chiang Kai Shiek Northen Expedition.

Yue Fei did come close.

But as one can see, regardless of whether Liu Bei was the one leading troops or whoever really, I personally find it very doubtful that they could eventually reunify China from the South based on context of 3000 years of history.

But then again, how on earth was ZGL and Liu Bei suppose to know all these? Remember, back then Liu Xiu did eventually restore the Han under much worse circumstances. And Liu Bei always had the ambition to be Emperor since he was young while ZGL was ambitious enough to not miss his ancestral homeland and bide his time and wait for opportunity to serve a capable lord(PSZ).

So now we arrive at the classic dilemma. Should Shu Han have attacked Cao Wei and force them on the defensive? Should they save up whatever little resources they have to stay on the defensive? Tough to say. Personally, Im not a big fan of the turtling strategy. It had too many flaws. Keeping the enemy on the defensive through a committed offence seems to be the best move. Being outnumbered at least 1:9 in terms of resources, 1:3 in terms of size and at least 1:4 in terms of population means that the longer Shu Han wait, the greater the disparity will grow between Cao Wei and Shu Han.

Also, Shu Han was running out of time in the sense that most of the old guard was already dead( Guan, Zhang, Liu, Huang, Pang, Fa). Relying on inexperienced future generations for the important goal of restoring the Han could possibly exasperate the already desperate Zhuge Liang further which made him even more commited to the offense. Along with the possible dangers of turtling and playing the waiting game.

After all, Jia Xu did advise Cao Pi to focus on defense. And Im personally not going to go against ZGL and Jia Xu in matters of war
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:31 am

wk123 wrote:
Agreed that both ZGL and Jiang Wei were warmongers who wasted Shu resources for decades, I think some of the DW iterations referred to that too.

Question: If Liu Bei lived after Yiling, and Liu Shan did not have to rule so early, would Shu's fate be the same?


I would agree with the others that Zhuge Liang wasn't a warmonger. Personally I back his "take the offensive" strategy over Jiang Wan/Fei Yi's more defensive strategy, Shu needs to try and make something happen given Wei is superior on resources, manpower and so on, it prevents Wei from focusing it's forces in anyone direction. Zhuge Liang always ensured civil front was in place and secure before he launched camapigns, he was careful not to strain the state so they could take whatever hits they got

Jiang Wei was a fame greedy warmonger

I'm not sure the fundamental chances of Shu change if Liu Bei lives longer. His expirence and skill would certainly have given Shu a miliatry boost for a few years but like Zhuge Liang, his tactics veered towards caution and while Liu Bei was alive, Wei had it's defences up as they respected him. I don't tink Liu Shan's fundamental nature would have changed either while he and Liu Bei don't seem to have been particularly close, maybe watching his father at work might have given him some use but not sure it would have prevented the last 10 years.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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