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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby HanXin94 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:50 am

What kingdom would you say is your favourite?

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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:02 am

That is a difficult one! As you might be able to tell from my screen name I like Sun Jian and particularly Sun Ce but I loath Sun Quan. That makes it difficult to be a fan of the actual kingdom of Wu. I don't really like Cao Cao so by default I'm left with Shu. :lol: How about you?
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:12 am

If someone posts a question or something else up, usually people will respond so active in that sense as quite a few lurk around

I'm from England, 3kingdom only and I lean towards Wei due to Cao Cao, Cao Rui, it's reforms and the manner of it's loss of power
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby HanXin94 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:46 am

I think Sun Ce was very talented and it's a shame that he died so early on. I can understand what you mean about Sun Quan he was quite capable at the beginning but then he went a bit crazy. I don't share your opinion on Cao Cao though, while he was a tyrant, he was also very talented and brought stability to the northern provinces. I prefer Shu Han, I like Liu Bei for his compassion, just don't let him hold any babies.
Cao Rui died quite early on too. If he didn't die, maybe the Sima family wouldn't have taken control.
I also have to commend Cao Mao for his bravery. At least he died trying to get his kingdom back unlike Han Xiandi who got usurped and then faded into obscurity.

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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:06 am

I agree that Cao Cao was exceedingly talented and I respect him for a lot of victories and his truly impress social reforms. I struggle to look past the massacres when it comes to an overall impression/judgement though.
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby HanXin94 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:19 am

You're quite right, that's the only thing I hold against him. Especially the Xuzhou massacre, it just alienated him from the peoples of the province and it allowed Liu Bei to retake it. I also think it was abhorrent to kill the empress and force his own daughter to be empress. Besides killing your lord, is there a more treacherous thing a man can do?

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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:14 pm

The first massacre of Xuzhou was provoked by Que Xuan and the people around Xiapi supporting him in his false claim to the Imperial Throne.
The second one was motivated by filial piety and vengeance for the death of Cao Cao's father at the hands of Tao Qian.
Both are equally terrible and easily Cao Cao's worst aspects without a doubt.

The death of Empress was related to her involvement in a coup to kill Cao Cao, however I believe harming the Imperial Family, particularly one so close to the Emperor, is a deplorable act. While it is not regicide in the case of Sima Zhao, it certainly is close.
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:32 pm

Welcome! :mrgreen:

I’m from the U.S. and study mostly the late-3K and Western Jin, but I’m also interested in many other eras as well. Lately I’ve been studying the later Tang, in particular Wu Zetian.

When did you move to China? :mrgreen: I’m jealous.
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby Han » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:41 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:The first massacre of Xuzhou was provoked by Que Xuan and the people around Xiapi supporting him in his false claim to the Imperial Throne.
The second one was motivated by filial piety and vengeance for the death of Cao Cao's father at the hands of Tao Qian.
Both are equally terrible and easily Cao Cao's worst aspects without a doubt.

The death of Empress was related to her involvement in a coup to kill Cao Cao, however I believe harming the Imperial Family, particularly one so close to the Emperor, is a deplorable act. While it is not regicide in the case of Sima Zhao, it certainly is close.


Whats your source for Que Xuan provoking a massacre that happened a year later after his death? The SGZ and ZZTJ make it quite clear its from his father death.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Is this forum still active?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:58 pm

Han wrote:
DaoLunOfShiji wrote:The first massacre of Xuzhou was provoked by Que Xuan and the people around Xiapi supporting him in his false claim to the Imperial Throne.
The second one was motivated by filial piety and vengeance for the death of Cao Cao's father at the hands of Tao Qian.
Both are equally terrible and easily Cao Cao's worst aspects without a doubt.

The death of Empress was related to her involvement in a coup to kill Cao Cao, however I believe harming the Imperial Family, particularly one so close to the Emperor, is a deplorable act. While it is not regicide in the case of Sima Zhao, it certainly is close.


Whats your source for Que Xuan provoking a massacre that happened a year later after his death? The SGZ and ZZTJ make it quite clear its from his father death.


Jiuyanda covers the whole thing here. He cites the HHS and SGZ on the matter. The massacre around Xiapi occurred before Cao Song was ever murdered, so unless Cao Cao is a time traveler (which is a power saved for his son Ang) how would he commit a massacre in vengeance before the act against his father was committed? Poor wording on my part in the initial post, It was provoked by Que Xuan but it was carried out on the people as punishment for supporting him.
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