Comprehensive Biography for Wang Hun

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Comprehensive Biography for Wang Hun

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:04 pm

Wang Hun, style Xuanchong (222-297)

Wang Hun was born in Taiyuan, during the year 222[1], he was the son of Wang Cheng who was the Minister of Works, one of the Three Excellencies, of Wei.[2] Wang Cheng had been recommended to serve Wei by Sima Yi when Ming-di, Cao Rui, commanded that each minister of the state recommend abundant talent.[3] Wang Chang himself was said to be prudent and magnanimous.[4] His brother's sons, and his own all carried special names. Wang Hun's specifically meant Harmony.[5] This is a rather fitting name when one considers the fact that Wang Hun played a key role in bringing harmony to China through unification.

Wang Hun's career began sometime during the Zhengshi Era, under the regime lead by Cao Shuang. Hun inherited his father's Marquissate of Jingling and served on the staff of Cao Shuang in some capacity.[6] However when Sima Yi rebelled in 249 and lead a coup, Shuang and several thousand others were put to death.[7] Hun, perhaps due to his lower rank and the connection of well known and still living father did not meet disaster. He was merely dismissed from office.[8]

Wang Hun's career did not end here as through his own hard work he would become the Prefect of Huai, and in 251 would become an Adjutant to Wen-di of Jin, Sima Zhao after the death of Xuan-di of Jin, Sima Yi.[9] His career would continue to rise as he would rise of Cavalier and Gentleman Attendant of the Yellow Gates, as well as Cavalier in Regular Attendance.[10] His career during this time frame, all the way until the reign of Wu-Di of Jin, Sima Yan, is not descriptive. Whether he fought with Wu or Shu seems to be unknown. At least to me.

When Wei abdicated for Jin and Sima Yan became Wu-Di, Wang Hun was promoted to General Who Spreads Zealousness and sent east to become Inspector of Xuzhou. While he was present a famine hit the region and the harvest was destroyed. In order to counteract this and save the people Wang Hun quickly opened up the store houses and distributed food and supplies to all the families. Hundreds were saved because of him.[11] His fief was increase by 1,800 households for his accomplishments in soothing and aiding the populace.[12]

Later his post would shift to Xuchang where he served as Commander of the Palace Gentlemen of the East. During his time it is noted that he pleaded many times for demotions and promotions. He is said to have employed many men.[13]

During the Taishi period, 265-274, Wang Hun was promoted to Inspector of Yuzhou. There he shared a boarder with Wu. During this time Xue Ying and Lu Shu, son of Lu Su, attempted to cross the river to lead a raid on Xinxi in Jin territory. They crossed under the cover of night in secret and did not fear any retaliation. However Wang Hun, somehow hearing of this plan, attacked them and defeating the Wu in impressive fashion.[14]

Again he would be promoted, this time holding command over all of the army and affairs in Yangzhou. Again bordering Wu, he was stationed at Shouchun.[15] Wancheng was used by Wu for great tilling, and they had planned to use the harvest stores when they invade Jin. Wang Hun, to destroy these plans, ordered the Inspector of Yangzhou, Ying Chuo, to attack.[16] Hun and Chuo rallied a large host and struck south, routing several garrisons and buring nearly 2 million hu of grain, 4,000 qing of rice and 600 boats. Taking advantage of this situation, Wang Hun then called for soldiers to inspect the Wu fortresses in order to learn the strengths and weaknesses, thus making him knowledgeable on the Wu defenses so he could capture them easier. He also began building a sizable navy.[17]

During this time in Jin there had been an uprising of the Xianbei under the Tufa branch, lead by Shujineng. Several commanders had been sent against them over the years, however most met with failure. Even the famous Hu Lie, hero of the Conquest of Shu, died at the hands of Shujineng.[18] There was even strife in the court factions between Ren Kai and Jia Chong, each trying to get the other sent to fight Shujineng as they would ultimately perish.[19] Wang Hun and his son, Ji, both recommended a man named Liu Yuan.[20] He was claimed to be the son of Liu Bao, the "Worthy King of the Left" and the captor as well as rapist of the famous Cai Yan.[21] Liu Yuan was said to be exceptionally talented, with arms as powerful as an ape, with raw strength greater than that of many men. He resembled that of a stalwart figure.[22] When he came to serve Jin, he held office in Luoyang. There he became close with Wang Hun and Ji, who both recommended him to Wu-Di several times. Wu-di spoke with Liu Yuan and was greatly impressed. Wang Ji praised him, saying that if he were sent south Wu would not resist him. However Kong Xun and Yang Yao both stated that his talents were meager, and since he was a Xiongnu and not Han Chinese he could not be trusted with important tasks. LI Xi advised that Liu Yuan be sent against the Tufa Xianbei as well, but again Kong Xun stated that he would become a greater menace to Liangzhou upon defeating Shujineng, and so Sima Yan did not employ him in the end.[23]

There is massively significant moment that comes involving Liu Yuan and Wang Hun, however. Liu Yuan lamented to Wang Mi, a friend of his and respected man, "Wang Hun and Li Xi, because of our common background, recognize my worth. Yet every time they try to recommend me, it is said that I am a menace." Sima You, the Prince of Qi and brother to Wu-di, stated that Liu Yuan must be dealt with as Bingzhou would not remain peaceful for very long. Wang Hun countered that the dynasties foundation is trust and regard beyond tradition. He further says that there is no justification for putting a man to death who serves loyally and has done nothing wrong. Wu-di agreed, and after Liu Yuan's father died, Yuan was appointed to Leader of the Left by Wu-di.[24] The great significance of this is that Liu Yuan would eventually found the state of Han-Zhao, which would rise up against Jin in the coming years. This might not be the smartest choice ever made.

Tufa Shujineng would eventually be killed by Ma Long, which allows Wu-Di to finally concentrate on what he desires; a unified China.[25] Several prominent figures from Yang Hu to Du Yu and Zhang Hua all pushed for this over the years. Wang Jun was the most recent, stating that Sun Hao was wasteful and cruel, as well as wild an disobedient. He advises attacking him now would be wise, as if he were to die and a worthy lord takes his place it would only make Wu stronger. He further states that he is 70 and the navy he built is rotting, and if he were to die Wu's conquest would be impossible.[26] No one would ever accuse Wang Jun of being a humble man.

Wang Hun had sent in a petition to Wu-di, stating that Sun Hao had a desire to invade Jin. Given that he had raided Wancheng not long ago in order to put a halt to any invasion, as well as dealt with previous raids; he has a point. He Pan, Wang Jun's adviser, countered that Sun Hao would not dare invade, but Wang Hun is right in wanting to keep their camps ready to make the invasion easier.[27] Sun Hao had expressed interest in the past in invading Jin. Why He Pan thinks that he "would not dare to venture forth" is beyond me.

In the winter of the same year Jin's grand campaign against Wu would begin. Wu-di employed the 'Six Column Formation'. The Six Columns consisted of Sima Zhou who would march to Chuzhong, Wang Hun who would march to Jiangxi, Wang Rong who would march to Wuchang, Hu Feng who would march to Xiakou, Du Yu who would march to Jiangling and Wang Jun who would march out from Yizhou. In total the Imperial Army fielded more than two hundred thousand soldiers across the nation.[28] Jia Chong was to serve as the Grand Commander of the operation, and see to communication between the six columns while Zhang Hua was tasked with managing the logistical end, making sure the armies were supplied properly.[29]

Wang Hun set forth from Hengjiang[30] and fought several skirmishes against the Wu forces.[31] He attacked the Lai district, fighting Kong Zhong and defeating him numerous times. He also captured Zhou Xing and 5 other generals. He attacked Gaowangcheng and defeated Yu Gong, executing thousands. Chen Dai and Zhu Ming of Wu both came forward and surrendered.[32]

Wang Hun's wing of the invasion had proven to be the most successful, as well as the one fighting the most. This struck fear into Sun Hao, who tasked the Prime Minister Zhang Ti with defeating him. He sent him with 20,000 soldiers, giving him Zhuge Jing, son of Zhuge Dan, Shen Ying and Sun Zhen. They were to cross the Yangzte and put Wang Hun to death. When the Wu army reached Niuzhu Shen Ying questioned these orders, stating that the army up the river is undermanned compared to Wang Jun's elite navy. It would be wise to rush to fight him, and then fall back to fight Wang Hun. Zhang Ti countered that Wu was destined to fall eventually, however if they can defeat Wang Hun then the Wu army can rally and unite, delivering a great defeat to Wang Jun. If they were to move west and not fight Wang Hun, Sun Hao would be forced to surrender and they never would've fought a battle.[33] Several months later Zhang Ti's army surrounded Wang Hun's subordinate Zhang Qiao. Qiao only had 7,000 soldiers against 20,000 and so he surrendered. Zhuge Jing advised executing him as they did not have the men to keep watch over him, however Zhang Ti refused to do so as that would be a bad sign. Zhuge Jing further stated that Zhang Qiao surrendered without a fight as his reinforcements hadn't arrived, stating he was only surrendering. Zhang Ti ignored him.[34]

Zhang Ti's army soon met a subordinate of Wang Hun's in battle. Shen Ying, with the elite soldiers of Danyang that Zhuge Ke had trained, charged on three sides against Jin, however the Imperial Lines held firm. This was a great blow to Shen Ying's morale and as they were falling back, their ranks fell into disorder. Xue Sheng and Jiang Ban of Jin struck with a surprise attack and routed them greatly. As the Wu were fleeing, Zhang Qiao had attacked, catching the Wu between two flanks of the Jin army and delivering them a great defeat.[35] Zhuge Jing rallies several hundred men together and went to go and find Zhang Ti. When he came upon the Prime Minister, Zhang Ti refused to flee.[36] Wang Hun's main army was approaching in columns at this time.[37] Zhang Ti stated that this was the day of his death, and Zhuge Jing pulled at him with tears in his eyes trying to pull him away and save his life. Zhang Ti would not move, and so Zhuge Jing fled.[38] When Zhuge Jing got far enough away and looked back, he saw everyone he was previously with dead. Zhang Ti, Sun Zhen, Shen Ying and nearly 8,000 men were slaughtered. Wu was shaken to it's core.[39]

Wang Hun, Wang Jun and Sima Zhou were all closing in on Jianye at this point. The Minister over to the Masses, He Zhi, and Sun Yan both fled Jianye and escaped to Wang Hun, handing in their seals and staffs of authority.[40] Sun Hao attempted to drive a wedge between the three by surrendering to all three of them through separate messengers. The plan did not work though.[41]

When Wang Jun was advancing down the river he was to fall under the command of Du Yu at Jianping, the furthest western outpost in Wu on the Yangzte near Xiling. When he would arrive near Jianye, he would fall under the command of Wang Hun for the final push of the assault. Wang Hun, after his tremendous success against Wu's largest defenses, set up camp along the anks of the Yangtze where he would await for Wang Jun to arrive. When Wang Jun was at Sanshan, some 31 miles from Jianye, Wang Hun ordered him to stop so their armies could unite and attack Jianye together.[42] Zhou Jun urged Wang Hun to advance, rather than wait. Wang Hun decided that he would follow Imperial Decree rather than seeking personal glory. He was to receive credit for taking Jianye anyways as Wang Jun was to be under his command.[43] Wang Jun wouldn't listen to Wang Hun, and with his eyes set on glory, hoisted up the sails and made straight for Wang Hun. He sent a departing letter, which simply said "One does not moor the ship when the wind is favorable."[44] One might describe this as a big middle finger to Wang Hun as Jun sails by on a boat.

Sun Hao, tying himself up to a coffin, surrendered to Wang Jun and Wu was official conquered, thus ending the Three Kingdoms period once and for all.[45]

The very next day Wang Hun crossed the river, and he was ashamed and furious. Wang Jun had not followed his orders, and thus stole all the glory for the invasion. He was tempted to even attack Wang Jun's army. He Pan, Wang Jun's subordinate, quickly begged Jun to send Sun Hao to Hun to appease him and tensions were eased.[46] However Wang Jun was charged with disobedience and the looting of Sun Hao's palace by Wang Hun. Furthermore when Jun returned to Luoyang he was not rewarded any special accolades from Wu-di.[47] Furthermore the dispute between the two had become so toxic that Wu-di had the Commandant of Justice, Liu Song, step in to decide what was to be done. He gave Wang Hun the great credit and reward, while only giving Wang Jun the middle achievement. Wu-di felt he acted against the law and demoted him.[48] If he felt this way, why did he task him with doing so...?

Wang Hun was reportedly very boastful in court, often bragging about his great victories and his achievements, meanwhile Wang Jun's accomplishments were stifled by Wang Hun and his partisans.[49] Wang Jun felt he was in the same position as Deng Ai, who fell prey to lesser jealous men in Zhong Hui and Wei Guan. The people were all on Wang Jun's side on the matter, and thanks to various ministers petitioning Wang Jun was enfeoffed as Grand General.[50] When Wang Hun would come visit Jun, Jun was so terrified that he often prepared a very strict guard as to protect himself before Hun would be allowed to see him.[51] If I may echo the words of Sima Guang, "Men like these two had strength enough to pacify the difficulties of the realm, and intelligence enough to obtain the entire state, yet they wrapped themselves entirely in defenses like this. How ridiculous this was!"

For his role in defeating Wu, Wang Hun's rewards in total were that of 8,000 households added to his fief, advancement to Duke, enfeoffment of his son Cheng as a Village Marquis, and his brother Zhan as Marquis inside the Passes. Hun was also bestowed 8,000 bolts of tabby silk.[51] He was further advanced to Grand General who Conquers the East and put up in Shouyang. Wang Hun, in his delivering of punishments, was lenient. He knew the people of Wu were terrified and under new leadership, and so he comforted their complaints, and treated everyone well. He came off as humble and kind. He always heard visitors, never had them delayed and in the end, the people of Wu all loved him.[52]

Wang Hun was eventually brought to the capital to serve as Supervisor of the Left of the Master of Writing. Wang Hun is described as 'inappropriate in his duties as overseer of the Masters of Writing.'[53] During this time the Jia faction, primarily under the influence of Xun Xu, were all seeking to dismiss Sima You. Xun Xu said that when Wu-di were to die, the Prince of Qi would rise up against the heir-apparent. Sima Yan agreed with this.[54] Wang Hun sent in his own petition on the matter, citing that treating the family well would protect against any rebellions. Loyal princes would protect against any clans rising up. He further advises Sima You be the one to take the post of Grand Guardian to the Crown Prince so he may manage court affairs of Sima Liang and Yang Yao, splitting the power between three powerful figures that could defeat any outside menace. Sima Yan did not listen to them at all.[55]

In 290 after Hui-Di, Sima Zhong, ascended the throne Wang Hun was promoted to Minister over the Masses, serving as one of the Three Excellencies. This comes 10 years after the fall of Wu. He does not seem to be very active at this time.[56] After the death of Yang Jun at the hands of Empress Jia Nanfeng, many of the old vassals were rewarded and treated well. Soldiers were added to Wang Hun's retinue, however he held a civil office and therefor did not command soldiers. To counter this, magistrates dressed in scarlet clothes in order to command soldiers. Wang Hun, however, dressed in black. People were impressed with his modesty.[57] The significance of this clothing story is lost on me. I do not know the reason this implies modesty. Would darker clothes imply that he is refusing to command soldiers, and thus being modest?

Furthermore the Prince of Chu, Sima Wei, desired to murder Sima Liang. He enlisted the aid of Gongsun Hong who told him that he must enlist the aid of Wang Hun, who has powerful fame and trusted by the three Armies. Sima Wei agreed and approached Wang Hun, however Hun pretended to be ill and returned home. When he got there he ordered all the people in his home to dawn armor and barricade the gates shut. Sima Wei, knowing that attacking Wang Hun would be a terrible idea, did not do anything. Not long after Sima Wei was killed by Empress Jia Nanfeng.[58]

Wang Hun was decreed by Hui-di to Record of the Affairs of the Masters of Writing, and in this he was successful, the Jinshu claims that "from beginning to end were manifested and renowned. When he resided among the Eminent Assistants, his prestige and popularity daily diminished.[59]

Wang Hun, in the year 297, passed away at the age of 75. He was succeeded by his son Ji. Hun was enfeoffed as the Inaugurating[60] or Foremost[61] Duke.

Wang Hun had married into the Zhong clan. His wife was Zhong Yan, a daughter of Zhong Hui and she would bear him at least two children, including Ji. There exists an anecdote that states when after Ji was born, Hun was seated with his wife in the courtyard and his son came passing through, which brought a joyous exclamation of "Having a son like this satisfies a man's heart!"[62]

And thus ends the story of Wang Hun, one of the heroes that brought a momentary peace to China under the Western Jin Dynasty. His military career, as we can see, was spectacular. His defeat of the Wu army at every turn was nothing short of legendary. He faced the brunt of their army and delivered them disaster every single time. His slaughter of Zhang Ti and some 8,000 others was so shocking to Wu that one of their Excellencies came directly to him in order to surrender. The greatest issue with Wang Hun comes along with Wang Jun, and their quarrels. Wang Jun disobeyed a direct order from his superior, and technically his Emperor, and pushed on for personal glory. Hun was furious over this and felt robbed. One cannot blame him for this as he was following direct orders while Jun disobeyed them, however one can hardly be mad at someone for taking advantage of an opportunity to destroy a rival state. In the end Sima Yan forgave any disobedience. Wang Hun's hatred seems petty, though luckily it did not turn deadly as Jun had feared. Despite all this, the people seemed to greatly admire Wang Hun as evident by his treatment of them during famine, and after the Conquest of Wu. While he could clearly be petty, he could also be very kind and humble. I believe ones opinion on him solely falls on how one views Wang Jun's actions. Is he justified in disobeying a direct order and taking Jianye? That would, I imagine, shape your overall view of Hun. Also he indirectly created Han-Zhao which would cripple the Jin Dynasty, but that's not something he could've seen coming.

[1] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography - This is my calculation and it was based off of the fact that he was 75 years old at the time of his death in 297 according to his Jinshu. If one checks google it is incorrectly listed as 223, a year off which would make him 74. However his Jinshu clearly states 75.
[2] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[3] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[4] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[5] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[6] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[7] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[8] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[9] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[10] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[11] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[12] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[13] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[14] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[15] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[16] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[17] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[18] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[19] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[20] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[21] Fan Ye, Cai Yan's Hou Han Shu biography - Upon further reflection, reading and discussion, it's come to my attention that Liu Yuan's ties to Bao and Yufulo are more than likely propaganda.
[22] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[23] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[24] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[25] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[26] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[27] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[28] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[29] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[30] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[31] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[32] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[33] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[34] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[35] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[36] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[37] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[38] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[39] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[40] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[41] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[42] John W. Killigrew, The Reunification of China in AD 280: Jin's Conquest of Eastern Wu
[43] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Zhou Jun's Jinshu biography
[44] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[45] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[46] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[47] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[48] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[49] John W. Killigrew, The Reunification of China in AD 280: Jin's Conquest of Eastern Wu
[50] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[51] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[52] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[53] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[54] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[55] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[56] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[57] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[58] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[59] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[60] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Wang Hun's Jinshu biography
[61] Taishi Ci 2.0, The Jin Dynasty (Part 1), Sima Guang, Zizhi Tongjian
[62] Fornandan, Fan Xuanling, Zhong Yan's Jinshu biography - This Zhong Hui is not the famous son of Zhong Yao, who conquered Shu and attempted to revolt in Chengdu. His exact relationship to this Zhong Hui is hard to determine, though the Jinshu described Zhong Yao as this Zhong Hui's maternal grandfather. This indiciates that this Zhong Hui may have been the son of Zhong Yu or Shao.
Last edited by DaoLunOfShiji on Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Comprehensive Biography for Wang Hun

Unread postby Fornadan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:08 am

While the sources claim Liu Yuan was the grandson of Yufuluo and son of Bao, this is most likely a fabrication. The chronology just doesn't add up
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Re: Comprehensive Biography for Wang Hun

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:04 pm

Really? That is something I will have to look over. Do you think it is possible that Liu Yuan was at all related to Yufulou and Liu Bao given that they were from the same tribe?
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Re: Comprehensive Biography for Wang Hun

Unread postby Fornadan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:55 pm

You should read Bao's entry in RdeC's dictionary.

If the Liu clan which led the Xiongnu in the late 3rd century was the same as the old ruling clan, which seems pretty likely, then they should be related in some way.
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Re: Comprehensive Biography for Wang Hun

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:24 pm

Fornadan wrote:You should read Bao's entry in RdeC's dictionary.

If the Liu clan which led the Xiongnu in the late 3rd century was the same as the old ruling clan, which seems pretty likely, then they should be related in some way.


The Jinshu biography of the early fourth century chieftain Liu Yuan/Yuanhai says that Bao held the Liu surname and was the father of Liu Yuan. The modern scholar Tang Changru, however, has argued that this was no more than a propaganda attempt to identify Liu Yuan with the great imperial lineages of the past.


That actually does make sense. Truthfully it is something that should've came to me before even reading that.
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