Yuan Shao, fool or genius

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Fool or genius

Fool
10
34%
Genius
2
7%
Inbetween
17
59%
 
Total votes : 29

Yuan Shao, fool or genius

Unread postby Cao Ren » Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:43 pm

I was wondering if you think that yuan shao was a fool or genius in the political and miltary aspect. I hav always loved to talk about him because his falts are good examples of thing done wrong. I think that he was a fool. He had every capabilitiyto take China for himself, but his arrogence and the manipulation from others really tore him off course. I loved Yuan Shao in his early days, but when the confrontation of Cao Cao came to him he broke down completely. Not listening to advice, sending single generals to battle with too many men for their handling. I feel that he let his great opputunity pass right into Cao Cao's hands. Although he wasn't very smart Yuan Shao still had great experiences and enough leraning from his own family that he should have been able to do as he wanted.
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Unread postby Tian Feng » Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:01 pm

I think Yuan Shao was smart, just... well, life gave him lemons, but he thought they were too sour. Opportunities knocked, yet no one was at home. I think that's enough cliches.

Yuan Shao was a great person, but he had personality faults, and that caused his demise.
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Unread postby Stefanos » Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:38 pm

Tian Feng wrote:I think Yuan Shao was smart, just... well, life gave him lemons, but he thought they were too sour. Opportunities knocked, yet no one was at home. I think that's enough cliches.

Yuan Shao was a great person, but he had personality faults, and that caused his demise.


I agree. Yuan Shao vs. Gongsun Zan. He was a genius in my opinion. A great and inspirational leader at the time. But when he obtained all of Hebei, he grew arrogant, along with his generals. He was, indeed, manipulated and if he had enough common sense, he wouldve faired much better. Yuan Shao vs Cao Cao was a disaster. Each of his generals over lusted for glory and fame, detering them from their real goal, to defeat Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Chen Kun » Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:43 pm

he was brave,cunning,and cruel but narrow minded person :?
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Unread postby Liang Erdao » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:07 am

I really liked him in his early career. He was decisive, (urging He Jin to kill the Eunuchs) brave, (refusing to flee with Zhao Yun bearing down) and cunning. (Obtaining Jizhou for free) With so many good people to start with, Yuan Shao must have had a lot of leadership skills in order to win the people to his side. He was also able to manage large armies effectively. He was also at least a patriot, in that he responded to lead the coalition against Dong Zhuo. (it failed, but it was Yuan Shu's fault, not his) Even in the KOEI games, Yuan Shao is not to be despised, with 85 lead and at least 80 intel. He was not dumb. He was just senile in his later years, I don;t know what got into him. When I first read about him, I thought he was going to be a huge factor on China's future. Guess he wasn't.


BTW in RTK VI Yuan Shao has a decent chance. He has Wen Chou, Yan Liang, Zhang He, Tian Feng and Ju Shou.... Not a bad top 5. Add this to the fact that he has a lot of troops and a lot of recourses. I've united China under the "Yuan" Dynasty several times.....
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Unread postby Zhou Mao » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:32 am

I don't think he was a complete fool. Like many others have said, his early career was filled with successes and triumphs, and surely he couldn't have gotten purely "lucky" that many times. Really, he only had one period where he dropped the ball, but it cost him everything.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:33 am

I voted in-between. It's true that his ambitions were good, and like Liang Erdao I liked him a lot in the beginning. However, I think a lot of his early successes have to do with his background. He had a lot of good followers, and support from the other lords, but I think that's mostly because of his pedigree and prestige. Many of his early deeds are expected of him, like patriotism and leadership, given that he came from a long line of Han high officials (3 dukes in 4 generations or something like that). But his own resources ran out, even as early as at the end of the Dong Zhuo campaign. Why didn't he lead the lords to pursue Dong Zhuo to Chang'an, and why couldn't he have restrained Yuan Shu, if he really was a good leader? Also, if he really was so inspirational a lord, why did the people under him have their own plans for glory and fame (as Zhou Yu pointed out)? If he really was so clever, why couldn't he discern the right decision from all that his advisors tell him?

I wouldn't say that he's a fool. He's just mediocre, and undeserving of the empire. He might have been a great lord during times of peace, but when the world kept changing unexpectedly he failed to cope and survive.
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Unread postby Tianshan Zi » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:26 am

Lady Wu wrote:He's just mediocre, and undeserving of the empire. He might have been a great lord during times of peace, but when the world kept changing unexpectedly he failed to cope and survive.

I agree. Yuan Shao was no great general or leader per se; however, his pedigree, connections, fortunes, prestige, etc. could have made him a very successful politician during the best of times. Then, he could have gotten away with some of the mistakes he is best known for. (I am especially thinking of his disregard for advice from his counselors.) Then again, maybe he would just have been poisoned! :lol:
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:18 am

Yes, I think he's in between. He was like the opposite of a Cao Cao; he started with everything, ended with nothing but regret on his deathbed. His great undoing was a mix between his own officers scheming and his own indecisiveness and cruelty. I have to admit I like him more than Liu Biao though, because at least he didn't pass up opportunities when they presented themselves...
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Unread postby Tian Feng » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:48 am

Wait, though, Yuan Shao did miss one good opportunity, at least in the novel: He didn't attack Cao Cao because "his son was sick".
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