Propganda and Prophecy

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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:06 am

In the old days where that wasn't uncommon


Sure?

one Source actually around=chose? Really? Yet you missed things which is concerning. I did source it and no didn't leave out relevant information

I think I have seen what happened with the Kong Rong one, we very much talking at cross purposes and misunderstood each other so I'll withdraw that you forgot.


Yeah? Yes. Again, no.

Sure.

4 pages is not too far back


4 pages worth of paragraph is.

Don't worry, I know what you mean with dynasties

Ok. As a dyslexic who finds copying out of a book onto screen actually quite hard, it takes longer then it should and then need to do something else if doing it too long. Since we were on a debate about Liu Bei prophecy, I copied out the bit of the prophecy about Liu Bei and Shu, the relevant bits as that is what the prophecy is about. Not the preamble that establishes that naming prophecy works, that is the only bit where Mu and the Han Emperors are vital, not the Liu Bei/Shan bit. Since the discussion was not on naming prophecies or how it worked, I left those bits out. Leaves the passage shorter and more readable, all relevant bits in

I'll acknowledge that two other historians doing the exact same thing of going down to Liu Bei/Shan passage only is a complete fluke, I only discovered that afterwards.


Ok.

Look. I already apologise for being inconsiderate and profusely thank you for typing from a book. So yeah......... And I have already explain that leaving out information will cause misunderstanding.

I dont understand this paragraph. What thing is a fluke?

I didn't say all forums as I'm aware different types of forums have very different rules but the sosz type forums in my expirence all have no swearing rules. I'm aware of lmao actually means (though here it is off rather then out) but again, why are you laughing? Again the issue isn't whether you then put a serious point or not afterwards (I have acknowledged you always do), that doesn't turn the lmao into irrelevance. Again I'm merely passing on advise gained from years on these kind of forums where there have been problems in past, take it or leave it

So you again want me to do all your work for you

You asked about what I would do. 1) Glad your admitting Zhang Yu was good at his job which he can't if he is a dumb dumb 2) The insult was before Liu Bei was his lord and due to Liu Bei's insult 3) again, talking about me and I would rather make a stand on something other then prophecy 4) pedicting fall isn't an insult

Yes, my error for using term mystic. My point stands, just swap mystic for soothsayer

You spent post after post defending Liu Bei and never once went "I know Liu Bei did this wrong" during those times when you could have. I asked simply becuase you never made a moral criticism and was defending him on some bizarre stuff. You still haven't told me when you said Zhang Yu's execution was wrong

You still also haven't told me which soothsayers/predictors was wrong. It is still somehow just the one guy that makes Liu Bei look bad that you call wrong, that you slander and abuse.


Sure. Because its funny or laughable? Im leaving it then. Because, again, on quora, reddit and this website, Ive used or seen people use lmao frequently. This is actually the first time I seen someone feel... offended? Insulted? Sensitive? About it.

Lmao. Whos the one doing the snipping? If you want a source for any information, I will gladly do your work for you... but this snipping thing...

1) Ive never said Zhang Yu was terrible or people felt Zhang Yu was terrible. Dumb Dumb is just a random and funny insult I came up on the spot. 2) Im referring to the though our lord will gain territory, he will fall thing 3) Unlike Zhang Yu who makes a prophecy without stand or even reasoning 4) Without reasons... behind close doors...

Explain how your point still stands.

LMAO. I most certainly do not. I have criticise Liu Bei many times. Defend him on what again? What bizarre stuff? I literally said Liu Bei overreacted on Zhang Yu execution.

How am I suppose to name names. I dont even know any predictors that do not give reasons. Liu Bei have many other things that make him look bad... like his treachery and pillages in Runan.

True but why would Zhang Yu assume that a famed figure like Liu Bei who warlords need to keep onside is used to getting verbal humiliation?

1) He was. He was also human and Zhang Yu's trade involved reading peple, 2) I'm arguing it is possible Zhang Yu knew, I'm open to the idea he didn't. Why wouldn't Liu Bei have a man he knows is a famed soothsayer around? 3) Zhang Yu was on Liu Bei's personal staff, one would assume Liu Bei's personal staff would be with Liu Bei at various times. As for reading bodies, that was part of his trade as a physiognomist. 4) Or he thought the reasoning given was ridiculous

Sure but again, you asked about me

In fairness to the three Shu soothsayers, none of them went to court and declared the doom to the emperor.


Because as RDC puts it, though Liu Bei frequently doubledeal, he still had a reputation of honour.

1) You base this off? Him not giving any reasonings for his prophecies? 2) Because people wouldnt ask advice from someone they are pissed off against. 3) Various times yes. Hang around? No. He was a predictor. You have literally zero reasons to back up that it was part of his trade. Who did he read when predicted the Han will fall? Who did he read when he predicted Liu Bei will fall. No reasonings. 4) Or he didnt know that Liu Bei had a grudge.

As in put yourself in his shoes way of asking.

Sure?

You responded to 0 of the point I made about reasoning. That may explain the confusion, I consider rebuttal to make an argument against the points raised but sometimes when I do that you are unhappy over that. You seem to consider repeating what you have said in past and not addressing the points as a rebuttal

I was more referring to then ask the same question related to my rebuttal which shows that you never read my rebuttal properly.

Yes and when pointed out that isn't about legitimacy, you keep ignoring that and repeating the same point. Predicting fall is not legitimacy, Du Qiong and Zhang Yu are not attacking legitmacy. I have explained why Qiao Zhou's is different


What reasoning? You can consider whatever you want. Lmao. I copypasta because you usually snip or reiterate the same stand.

Ok?

Attacking the Han dynasty when the regime you are on is based on Han loyalism IS attacking said regime legitimacy. Saying that Liu Bei will DEFINITELY fall is an insult[ to Liu Bei]. There is a reason why Lady Wu felt his words were misspoken! Qiao Zhou was different because he was well respected and was backed by political realities. Du Qiong only referred to the East Han replacement by Wei AFTER it already happened.

That would have been helpful several pages ago :wink: I hadn't seen that passage before, that annotation seems to be accepted by Professor Rafe in his tome so sure, I accept Kong Rong slandered Wei to Wu and on that he deserves execution. Chi Lu's charges were still bull on plenty of other fronts but not on that one

Heads up though, the sgz is unhelpful an answer. Kong Rong's sgz makes it clear where people can find it


I literally stated

Than I literally countered that Kong Rong official charges were slander to Sun Quan envoy, with source XueSanGuo.


And I have mentioned section 12 many times already previously. :wink: and have argued many times the main charges were Kong Rong slandering Han Chancellor Cao Cao aka treason.

We are talking about strictly Kong Rong for this... what other San Guo Zhi would it be. :roll:

How does pointing out that none of what your claiming exists not count as a rebuttal? You can read the passage. It literally at no point says it is kind. My simply repeating what is there doesn't change that you can read the passage unless you have misunderstood the passage. I din't give reasoning here, I simply states "these are the three annotations"

1) Of course people were pleased. That doesn't make it kind. If I promote someone as would be my job, that person is likely to be pleased. It isn't an act of kindness by me. If I give a gift to curry favour and get the right gift then that person will be pleased, that I do it to gain their favour means I wasn't being kind. If someone gives me a gift bar the extreme end (like room for sex scandal we have here) then I would be pleased despite the motive

2) The attempt to link it up with my past comments. That is his personal view, I have said several times why I feel the act wasn't kind

3) Why? It is his view, he is trying to encourage good rule. But I would argue my points were related but you always then demand I don't do it, the only ones you seem to accept are your own.

4) Your using human nature with Brexit and Trump

Sure people will always disagree on human nature within the same time period. We do, philosophers have and I suspect always will do. I have no issue with you believing the act was kind, just your claims the sgz and annotations themselves say it


It does but I apparantly, I did misunderstood. You didnt just repeat it. You repeated it then explained why it did not refer Liu Bei act as kindness - an elaboration - aka a rebuttal.

1) Sure. Not mutually exclusive. Not relevant. Giving gifts plus promotion =/ promotion only. Not mutually exclusive. I dont understand this line?

2) Just because its his personal view doesnt mean its wrong.

3) Yes. By displaying kindness. Lmao. Except, that Ive accepted your points many many times, including over mine many times.

4) LMAO. NO. Im using political tensions.

Wouldnt you agree that all humans will hold a pessimistic view on their country when their country is in a decline?

Wouldnt you agree that human nature is too vague.

I'm trying to help flesh out my views of kindness.

He had used gifts to curry favour before and it is a common way of gaining favour. He is a warlord who just got some land and an officer core, why would he not begin filling his government? I'm not saying he feared but he is trying to unify a new realm under him including Liu Zhang loyalists (speaking of which, there was a kind act when he refused to press a Liu Zhang loyalist hard during the war out of respect), doubters, and those who had joined expecting better things and might be a bit annoyed if that better thing doesn't happen.

I'm not trying to paint it black and white


Right.

Source? Again, all of these are not mutually exclusive.

You are stating that a person actions cannot mean both personal interest and kindness. Which is very black and white.

1) It isn't but doing something for yourself isn't kind

2) That is more timing

3) If I'm doing my job, how am I being kind. It is literally what I am being paid to do

4) Doing something where refusing to do it is just plain stupid and going to harm yourself, that isn't kindness. Refusing to accept those surrenders would make him a complete and utter idiot


1) And for them too.

2) To celebrate? Sure.

3) Does your job involve looking out for others interest?

4) Yes. But giving people jobs and gifts together are. Yes. But giving them jobs and gifts afterwards...
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:54 am

Jia Nanfeng wrote:I'm not sure why that happened. :? I did type a few things in reply but apparently it got eaten.

Sorry! I'll edit the post so it's not such an eyesore. Or you can delete it. :P


Feel free to join in, these things happen

Do you know how to manually type in quote symbols? I sometimes find that helps rather quoting whole page?
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:24 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Jia Nanfeng wrote:I'm not sure why that happened. :? I did type a few things in reply but apparently it got eaten.

Sorry! I'll edit the post so it's not such an eyesore. Or you can delete it. :P


Feel free to join in, these things happen

Do you know how to manually type in quote symbols? I sometimes find that helps rather quoting whole page?

Yeah, I know how. I deleted text so I was only quoting what I wanted but it’s like it didn’t save it that way. I was on my phone so maybe I had poor connection or something.

Anyway, I didn’t feel like retyping my reply. :lol: I’ll just keep reading until I see something that irks me again. ;)
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:14 am

4 pages worth of paragraph is.


Maybe it is me being an old timer but 4 pages wasn't that unusual

Ok.

Look. I already apologise for being inconsiderate and profusely thank you for typing from a book. So yeah......... And I have already explain that leaving out information will cause misunderstanding.

I dont understand this paragraph. What thing is a fluke?


When I said the other stuff was about name prophecy being legitimate rather then about, why didn't that reassure you at the time?

I'm making clear that two historians doing the same thing (quoting only the Liu Bei/Shan stuff) was something I learnt after my shortening to that section.

Sure. Because its funny or laughable? Im leaving it then. Because, again, on quora, reddit and this website, Ive used or seen people use lmao frequently. This is actually the first time I seen someone feel... offended? Insulted? Sensitive? About it.

Lmao. Whos the one doing the snipping? If you want a source for any information, I will gladly do your work for you... but this snipping thing...

1) Ive never said Zhang Yu was terrible or people felt Zhang Yu was terrible. Dumb Dumb is just a random and funny insult I came up on the spot. 2) Im referring to the though our lord will gain territory, he will fall thing 3) Unlike Zhang Yu who makes a prophecy without stand or even reasoning 4) Without reasons... behind close doors...

Explain how your point still stands.

LMAO. I most certainly do not. I have criticise Liu Bei many times. Defend him on what again? What bizarre stuff? I literally said Liu Bei overreacted on Zhang Yu execution.

How am I suppose to name names. I dont even know any predictors that do not give reasons. Liu Bei have many other things that make him look bad... like his treachery and pillages in Runan.


We aren't reddit, very different culture. Can't speak of quora. Mind you the old forums are fading out and elements of the reddit culture like lmao may well spread here but would give it a few more years

You are very good on sources, not so good on forum related work

1) Dumb dumb indicates he is an idiot, I can only react to what you say 2) A negative prophecy is not an insult, 3) well he is a famed soothsayer and again we don't know if he gave reasoning or not, 4) again, not an insult.

Sure. See what happens when I swap the mistake word Ok insult. Yes like other soothsayers, no reasons were recorded


You don't spend posts defending Liu Bei? :? Twice I would say in this thread (including calling assault "a slight overreaction") and both requiring me to prompt you to defend. Look through the thread on the next two questions, all I have you on condemning Zhang Yu's execution till last post or so was Liu Bei was an ass for joking about a secretary beard I guess. And holding a grudge for a witty comeback was wrong. not the actual execution

I gave you names and links. Interesting on Liu Bei. Why Runan? Cheng Du I can see having an issue with but Runan seems normal pillaging. I'm not that fussed on the treachery as long as people don't pretend he didn't do it/try to make him the hero of it (or I can tease a Shubie :wink: ) but which ones are you uneasy with?

Because as RDC puts it, though Liu Bei frequently doubledeal, he still had a reputation of honour.

1) You base this off? Him not giving any reasonings for his prophecies? 2) Because people wouldnt ask advice from someone they are pissed off against. 3) Various times yes. Hang around? No. He was a predictor. You have literally zero reasons to back up that it was part of his trade. Who did he read when predicted the Han will fall? Who did he read when he predicted Liu Bei will fall. No reasonings. 4) Or he didnt know that Liu Bei had a grudge.

As in put yourself in his shoes way of asking.

Sure?


Sure. However I'm not sure why that would Liu Bei more likely to be insulted since becoming a famous commander

1) physiognomy, 2) Not if they are professional 3) Hang around maybe bad phrasing but a staff officer would surely be assigned to the person they are staff officer for and thus be with them regularly enough. He was a physiognomyist as well. Again we aren't given the reasons like many predictors, 4) I'm open to that possibility

Sure and I gave an honest answer. I would also make sure Chen Shou or Qiao Zhou was my student so my reasoning were recorded unlike many soothsayers :wink:

So why expect Zhang Yu to do it when none of them would

What reasoning? You can consider whatever you want. Lmao. I copypasta because you usually snip or reiterate the same stand.

Ok?

Attacking the Han dynasty when the regime you are on is based on Han loyalism IS attacking said regime legitimacy. Saying that Liu Bei will DEFINITELY fall is an insult[ to Liu Bei]. There is a reason why Lady Wu felt his words were misspoken! Qiao Zhou was different because he was well respected and was backed by political realities. Du Qiong only referred to the East Han replacement by Wei AFTER it already happened.


All 7 of them. Sometimes I do go for same stand when I have already given the answer and you seem to miss said answer

I suspect that is a confused ok?

No it isn't. No it isn't. It is a negative prediction sure but is neither an attack on the legitimacy or an insult. That was a translation rather then her own views. Zhang Yu was well respected but the difference is Qiao Zhou's student recorded the full thing and reasoning unlike Zhang Yu since Chen Shou was not his student. Du Qiong can't be prophesying about the fall of the Han after it happens

I literally stated

Than I literally countered that Kong Rong official charges were slander to Sun Quan envoy, with source XueSanGuo.



And I have mentioned section 12 many times already previously. :wink: and have argued many times the main charges were Kong Rong slandering Han Chancellor Cao Cao aka treason.

We are talking about strictly Kong Rong for this... what other San Guo Zhi would it be. :roll:


You right I missed the first part, not sure what you mean by section 12, the third one I kept thinking we were discussing the charges which as far as I knew was from Chi Lu's claims only.

You do know most of which we have been discussing about Qiao Zhou is not in Qiao Zhou's SGZ? The SGZ puts some stuff in odd places.

It does but I apparantly, I did misunderstood. You didnt just repeat it. You repeated it then explained why it did not refer Liu Bei act as kindness - an elaboration - aka a rebuttal.

1) Sure. Not mutually exclusive. Not relevant. Giving gifts plus promotion =/ promotion only. Not mutually exclusive. I dont understand this line?

2) Just because its his personal view doesnt mean its wrong.

3) Yes. By displaying kindness. Lmao. Except, that Ive accepted your points many many times, including over mine many times.

4) LMAO. NO. Im using political tensions.

Wouldnt you agree that all humans will hold a pessimistic view on their country when their country is in a decline?

Wouldnt you agree that human nature is too vague.


Still one of my weakest rebuttals in this thread to be frank

1) Doing my duty is not kindness. Giving gifts is another matter from promotion but also in itself not kindness if the motive isn't kind. On the line you don't understand, I was saying I would be pleased at a gift bar extreme circumstances, that doesn't mean the giver is being kind

2) Sure. I'm not the one constantly trying to push my view on kindness on the other, I am happy for you and I to have a different view of kindness

3) I was referring to points involving other times

4) You don't think political tensions are created by human nature and human reactions?

No becuase some manage to be optimistic

Complex would be my preferred definition

Right.

Source? Again, all of these are not mutually exclusive.

You are stating that a person actions cannot mean both personal interest and kindness. Which is very black and white.


Source for what bit exactly?

It can but I need evidence of the kind motive.

1) And for them too.

2) To celebrate? Sure.

3) Does your job involve looking out for others interest?

4) Yes. But giving people jobs and gifts together are. Yes. But giving them jobs and gifts afterwards...


1) It may be great for them but your still doing something to benefit yourself, not for them

2) He had just conquered the province and formed a base, he was going to celebrate and cultivate support

3) Yes. Why?

4) That cultivates favour and loyalty, helping secure support for your new regime? Highly practical.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:45 pm

When I said the other stuff was about name prophecy being legitimate rather then about, why didn't that reassure you at the time?

I'm making clear that two historians doing the same thing (quoting only the Liu Bei/Shan stuff) was something I learnt after my shortening to that section.


About what? Regardless it wasnt purely names, it was also related to the downfall various dynasties.

Which was why I was against leaving out vital information. :wink: :roll:

In complete seriousness, I actually did post a similar passage that you typed from the book. The passage that I posted contained the Liu Bei, Liu Feng and Liu Shan thing. When I asked you if it was similar to the book, you agreed that it was more or less the same.

We aren't reddit, very different culture. Can't speak of quora. Mind you the old forums are fading out and elements of the reddit culture like lmao may well spread here but would give it a few more years

You are very good on sources, not so good on forum related work

1) Dumb dumb indicates he is an idiot, I can only react to what you say 2) A negative prophecy is not an insult, 3) well he is a famed soothsayer and again we don't know if he gave reasoning or not, 4) again, not an insult.

Sure. See what happens when I swap the mistake word Ok insult. Yes like other soothsayers, no reasons were recorded


You don't spend posts defending Liu Bei? :? Twice I would say in this thread (including calling assault "a slight overreaction") and both requiring me to prompt you to defend. Look through the thread on the next two questions, all I have you on condemning Zhang Yu's execution till last post or so was Liu Bei was an ass for joking about a secretary beard I guess. And holding a grudge for a witty comeback was wrong. not the actual execution

I gave you names and links. Interesting on Liu Bei. Why Runan? Cheng Du I can see having an issue with but Runan seems normal pillaging. I'm not that fussed on the treachery as long as people don't pretend he didn't do it/try to make him the hero of it (or I can tease a Shubie :wink: ) but which ones are you uneasy with?


Again, lmao is used everywhere. I was giving reddit and quora as examples of internet forums to back up my stand. The overall argument still stands.

I honestly do not know how to reply to this. Lmao.

1) You can take it as a joke - which is my intention - or you can dismiss it - which isnt my intention. 2) One without reasons is. There is a reason why Lady Wu felt that his words were misspoken. 3) But we do know that out of the 3 famed soothsayers of Shu Han, only Zhang Yu has no recorded reasons nor political situation to back his arguments. And not just a 1 time thing but for all 3 of his predictions. 4) Misspoken words.

What does this paragraph mean? Are you using sarcasm again?

Liu Bei spanked an inspector because the inspector was unwilling to have a conversation with him. The execution was not wrong.

Rafe De Crespigny describes Zhang Yu execution as

Zhang Yu later joined Liu Bei's staff, and in 218
Liu Bei consulted him on his plans to attack Hanzhong.
Zhang Yu warned against the idea, but the campaign
proved successful. About the same time, moreover,
he made the private comment that it was time for the
dynasty to change, that fortune had left the house of
Liu, and that Liu Bei would lose Yi province nine
years from the time he gained it. His words leaked out
and, despite protests from Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei had
Zhang Yu executed for his treasonous prophecy and on
account of the old insult.
Likewise, Lady Wu described Zhang Yu words as misspoken.

And again, all of them did gave reasonings. During his pillage of ChengDu, he only targeted the treasury or at least only gave his soldiers orders to target the treachery. In Runan, he actively worked with bandits to pillage. I dont really blame Liu Bei for his treachery because double dealing was common during wars. I blame his hypocrisy.

Sure. However I'm not sure why that would Liu Bei more likely to be insulted since becoming a famous commander

1) physiognomy, 2) Not if they are professional 3) Hang around maybe bad phrasing but a staff officer would surely be assigned to the person they are staff officer for and thus be with them regularly enough. He was a physiognomyist as well. Again we aren't given the reasons like many predictors, 4) I'm open to that possibility

Sure and I gave an honest answer. I would also make sure Chen Shou or Qiao Zhou was my student so my reasoning were recorded unlike many soothsayers :wink:

So why expect Zhang Yu to do it when none of them would


Liu Bei reputation is based of his honour[personality] not his generalship[skill].

1) Actually, there are zero records that shows Zhang Yu made his predictions of physiognomy other than reading himself... 2) Liu Bei was not professional when it came to dealing with his surbodinates. Same with the other warlords. They all frequently held grudges against great people and gave favour to men of dubious personalities. 3) Zhang Yu joined Liu Bei at 214. In 215 Liu Bei dealt with Sun Quan. From 217 to 219, Liu Bei dealt with Hanzhong. So at most Zhang Yu was with Liu Bei for on off 2 years. Regular? Eh... not with a guy who was a master at keeping his emotions and thoughts to himself. Just because Zhang Yu read his own face doesnt meant he was a super master of physiognomyist. Of Shu Han, Du Qiong and Qiao Zhou did. 4) Sure?

Du Qiong wasnt Qiao Zhou or Chen Shou teacher... so this argument doesnt really work.

Expect what? No one is expecting anyone to tell a ruler whose regime was based on Han Loyalism that the Han will definitely 100% gurantee fail. Thats career suicide. Especially in a political situation where the Han Emperor was held hostage.

All 7 of them. Sometimes I do go for same stand when I have already given the answer and you seem to miss said answer

I suspect that is a confused ok?

No it isn't. No it isn't. It is a negative prediction sure but is neither an attack on the legitimacy or an insult. That was a translation rather then her own views. Zhang Yu was well respected but the difference is Qiao Zhou's student recorded the full thing and reasoning unlike Zhang Yu since Chen Shou was not his student. Du Qiong can't be prophesying about the fall of the Han after it happens


Not really. I dont miss anything considering the fact that I mostly copypasta what you write then start off my rebuttal. Instead of you know... snipping...

More like a lmao ok.

RDC claims its treacherous. Lady Wu refers to it as misspoken. You are the only one arguing otherwise. Ahh so a historical source that refers to Zhang Yu as misspoken? That works for me too lmao. Or maybe out of all 4 predictions Zhang Yu made, only 1 had reasoning which was his dumb dumb face... showing that there isnt much to work with in the first place. Fair enough, but he did gave reasonings.

You right I missed the first part, not sure what you mean by section 12, the third one I kept thinking we were discussing the charges which as far as I knew was from Chi Lu's claims only.

You do know most of which we have been discussing about Qiao Zhou is not in Qiao Zhou's SGZ? The SGZ puts some stuff in odd places.


Which was in section 12 where all my arguments for Kong Rong is based off.

You do know that the only Kong Rong SGZ describes Kong Rong death? You do know that common sense means that discussion on Kong Rong means at the very least Kong Rong SGZ will be used? You do know that every person who has a SGZ will have their deaths stated in the SGZ?

Still one of my weakest rebuttals in this thread to be frank

1) Doing my duty is not kindness. Giving gifts is another matter from promotion but also in itself not kindness if the motive isn't kind. On the line you don't understand, I was saying I would be pleased at a gift bar extreme circumstances, that doesn't mean the giver is being kind

2) Sure. I'm not the one constantly trying to push my view on kindness on the other, I am happy for you and I to have a different view of kindness

3) I was referring to points involving other times

4) You don't think political tensions are created by human nature and human reactions?

No becuase some manage to be optimistic

Complex would be my preferred definition


Sure.

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+givi ... e&ie=UTF-8

1) In what world do you live in that giving gifts isnt kindness. Giving gifts while having ill intent isnt kindness. But giving gifts solely for the sake of giving is. If not kindness than at least an act of goodwill. Likewise, giving gifts along with promotions is kindness. Good warlordship and kindness isnt mutually exclusive. And I understand everything, on the event that I dont, I will definitely inform you.

2) Lmao. Am I suppose to respond to this?

3) Sure. I'm not the one constantly trying to push my views on others, I am happy for you and I to have a different views.

4) Only partially. Crucial events plays a more important role.

The higher ups and senior members... like Qiao Zhou... wouldnt. They may not panic or hold an outright pessimistic view. But the prestige of their government - if not - their country wouldnt.

Sure.

Source for what bit exactly?

It can but I need evidence of the kind motive.


On 'He had used gifts to curry favour before and it is a common way of gaining favour.' Dont get me wrong, giving gifts did happen occasionally and was an act of favour[ plus kindness and goodwill] but I dont think Liu Bei ever did so before. And it was not common. In fact, excluding Shi Xie, giving gifts exclusive of government rewards did not really happen much.

1) It may be great for them but your still doing something to benefit yourself, not for them

2) He had just conquered the province and formed a base, he was going to celebrate and cultivate support

3) Yes. Why?

4) That cultivates favour and loyalty, helping secure support for your new regime? Highly practical.


1) Giving gifts and promotions did benefit them... if not they would just try to defect or try to stay at home... instead of being satisfied...

2) Obviously. By giving gifts to establish himself with a repuation of confucian ideal of kindness and virtue.

3) My overall point is that your job in 21st Century is irrelevant to Ancient China warlordship.

4) And kind. Not mutually exclusive and all that...
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:48 pm

I'm enjoying most of your debate not but I'm bored of the 'lmao' bit.

Han, Dong Zhou is right. For the most part we are encouraged to avoid using 'l33t' language. I thought it was in the rules but it's not. The closest that James comes to mentioning it is:

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Please do not change the default color or font-size in your posts, with reasonable exception made for emphasis and titles (e.g. bold text), and for ‘spoilers’, which can be concealed in background-like colors (see below). These rules ensure your post does not distract viewrs from other content. In addition, strive to meet a fair standard in grammar (please don’t post junk like ‘U’ or ‘4’ when what you mean is ‘you’ or ‘for’), and avoid excessive smilies. Also, please use a spellchecker. These rules are for the sake of basic human decency.


You will notice that the veteran members of the board don't use terms like 'lol', 'lmao'. We occasionally use abbreviations like RDC, ZL, GoTS but they are unusual. This is different to reddit and many of the current internet hangouts. That's because SoSZ is a relic of the past. Reddit and the like usurped the place of discussion forums like this one. We do have different standards and people will respect your content more if you stick to them.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:10 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I'm enjoying most of your debate not but I'm bored of the 'lmao' bit.

I was somewhat enjoying it too, but I feel like I've lost track of it amongst the clutter like that bit.

I'm newish here so I didn't want to step on anybody's toes, but I feel like this has become less of a debate and more of an argument. I wanna see more making-points and less scoring-points. :wink:
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:21 am

Fair enough. I will try to limit it. In fact, I have been limiting it to only once to thrice per posts. My lmao is also not used to offend anyone or back my stand but more of a haha or lol.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:14 pm

I think you're better off using the :lol: emote to get that across! :D
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:47 am

Been asked to set my main stance. Two issues really

Zhang Yu: I have no issue with his prophecy, I don't think a man engaging in prophecy should go "and everything will be lovely" if the genuine prediction is a negative one as that would be dishonest (not advertising it on the other hand is wise). Of the three "will fall" prophecies, I feel Qiao Zhou is going a bit too far becuase he is undermining Shu's claims to legitimacy that he had signed, Du Qiong and Zhang Yu kept it within prediction/prophecy. I wish, like I do with many more prophecy guys, we had more of a sense of how he made prophecy including his fatal one but that is an issue with Chen Shou rather then Zhang Yu or the others. I think it speaks poorly of Liu Bei that he held a grudge against Zhang Yu for being wittier then him and that it led to Zhang Yu's death

Liu Bei appointing people+giving gifts after taking Yi: It is good warlordship, building support in his new regime, setting up a good administration, I just don't think it is kind since appointments is his job and giving gifts was a way of building support as it had been pre conquest. Liu Bei's appointments were a good one which shows his skill with using talent. I don't think doing your job (appointments) or doing something to benefit your self (gifts) is kind, others will disagree and I have no issue with that. The initial discussion was due to Han's misreading of a passage (which is fair enough, we have all done that) so we disagreed on what the texts said.
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