Propganda and Prophecy

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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:54 pm

And how on earth is Liu Ping related to ' contradictions in his life '


It's a contradiction in Liu Bei's life (the only time Liu Ping appears is in Liu Bei's sgz I believe) and yet, the historians said nothing.

Yep. Agreed, but I said my stand wayyyy before the you posted the book.

A few.

Yes, it isnt a problem.


You posted your stand on how the prophecy read before you knew the prophecy? I'm pretty sure is not what your claiming so somewhere we have got crossed wires and talking about two different things

Way more then I usually see in a debate at any rate

2) I dont understand this paragraph at all.

3) Yes, Ive already apologised. :D

Below part 4.


2) When I listed things you forgot, you denied you had forgotten these things. When I said what pages these things were on, you said you looked back and didn't find any of them. Yet I was able to find them and show you

3) but your not seeing the pattern of you forgetting

Literal connection? Obviously not. But a connection in terms of how it played out? Yes. As in the Progenitors gave lousy names which resulted in the fall of all three Dynasties.


Sure, I have been arguing that it was Qiao Zhou building the case for name prophecy. You are the one who has spent pages seeming to feel as if there was something more then that, that it was dynastic connections and so on.

Err seriously? Ive been using Lmao all this while and this is the first time I heard of such a rule. I also frequently look back past threads and arguments does contain alot of haha or lol. If it does not affect my point or your point whatsoever, I see zero issue with it. Im not using it to attack your character, your point or dismissing anything. Actually, everytime we have a debate, Im usually the one that make the point and you just dismiss it without giving a reason much less attempting to rebutt it. The snipping and the proove to me etc etc.

You seriously believe that it would be ok if you teleport back to the Han Dynasty of 210ADs and say it will end when 1) The Emperor is hostage and 2) The Han was in serious decline and 3) Loyalty to Dynasty is a venerated trait in Confucian Values that people will be fine with it? Why do you thing Zhang Yu tried to kept it private in the first place?!

Im not spreading rumours about Zhang Yu unlike what he did about the Han Dynasty. :wink: Everything I said its literal copypaste from the links. Yep.

Again, Im not slandering. Im insulting him for being a dumb dumb and give stupid prophecies which at that point on time was nonsensical. Just become it become true later doesnt mean it was not nonsensical then when we take in all the factors. NO. You dont do that. You dont attack me. You attack my point but not me. Lmaooo. And are you forgetting the fact that I called Liu Bei an asshole for insulting Zhang Yu? Are you forgetting the fact that I said Liu Bei actions were uncalled for and wrong? Are you forgetting the fact that I have criticised Liu Bei multiple times in the past including the spanking part?


How long have you been in places like this? Yeah people joke and have a laugh, that is fine but they don't "your point is so bad, it is making me laugh" which is what you tend to use lmao for. You will quote a serious point someone made and go lmao and how other people take lmao's is not always "well he is taking my point seriously and thinks I'm wise" but their effort is being mocked. Few ill mind your strongly disagreeing with them in the rest of the post as you do but lmao and like risks being like a red rag to the bull

Snipping is just to shorten the post (explained further below). In terms of not engaging, yeah all those quotes, links and words I have written seemed to have slipped your mind. Six pages here, six pages in the first thread you created (note I am the only one who has done this) plus the Q&A stuff and so on. I do engage, I do discuss, I give reasons and answers, you just don't always like them which is a different matter entirely. I know your annoyed but if I didn't engage, providing all sorts of stuff, how do you think we have had such lengthy debates?

The Han's fall had been prophished plenty of times, I would just make sure I was careful who to tell it too

dum dum. Slander right there. Based purely on your dislike for the guy. No source calls him that, you can't have copypasted it and no historical account claims he acted without reason, it simply hasn't recorded the reasons

No, I'm recognizing that the only prophesy you attack is from a guy Liu Bei executes and you then proceed to launch slander and personal attacks on that guy. I do recognize that when I pressed you on the subject of Liu Bei sins, "you guess" that Liu Bei did these wrong with limited conviction. The spanking actually is a rare example of you showing force against Liu Bei and that is great

Except that Zhang Yu would not know that Liu Bei hated him at that pointed of time. Here you go making up stuff again! What we do know is, 1) Liu Bei was known for keeping his emotions to himself. 2) Liu Bei bore a grudge but did not show it. 3) Liu Bei was willing to ask Zhang Yu for advice even after boring a grudge. 4) Even when Zhang Yu was arrested, he still did not know his errors and that he offended Liu Bei previously with his witty comeback. Be honest now. Isnt it more likely the reason why Zhang Yu tried to kept it private was because 1) He knew that a prophecy that the Han will end and Liu Bei will fall will not sit well with a regime base around loyalty to Liu Bei and the Han Dynasty? 2) Saying that a 400 year old Dynasty will fall in a tense political reality was not a good look?

Stop making assumptions and concentrate on rebutting my point. Im saying that Qiao Zhou prophecies was supported by various and more factors in comparison to Zhang Yu which gives his prophecy more legitimacy. I even used a Present Day Geopolitical comparison with the UK( Brexit) and US( Trump).

I always do. Always. You SNIP my points!!! I have yet to done such a thing! You may read them. I will obviously not know. What I do know is you snip my points some paragraph worths for no apparent reason and you dismiss my stand without explaining why you dismiss it much less rebutt it.

1) Which is true.

2) Once again, truth.

He attacked the legitimacy of the East Han. Shu did not even exist yet at the point in time. What on earth are you saying? He declared that Liu Bei will definitely fall. Yes and so did Qiao Zhou this time with Shu Han. You keep making this comparison again, I will just keep copypasta that political realities and reasoning thing. Because these two situations are not comparable whatsoever like Ive said for the 100th time.


He didn't? Based on what? 1) off the top of my head that is true 2) where does it say that? 3) indeed 4) We have Zhuge Liang not knowing, not Zhang Yu. I would generally keep prophecies of doom private but I'm not as brave/confident as Guan Lu, Qiao Zhou, Zhu Juping, that mystic Liu Bei consults before Yiling in one annotation and so on

Yes and I addressed the realities for Zhang Yu before, you can go read it. I agree Qiao Zhou had plenty of political reality, the only thing I have attacked him for is attacking the foundation and legitimacy of his own dynasty feels bad form. I do remember the Brexit one and I addressed that at the time

I do snip yes and you free to snip, nothing in rules against that and has been common practise down the years. It is to keep quotes down to manageable length. I do read your every post and I respond to them. However I can understand how someone unused to forums like this would be offended by snipping and I should have been aware, explained what snipping is for so for that I apologize. I hope this has cleared up the matter

Qiao Zhou did, Zhang Yu never made any claim about it's legitimacy. About it's survival is another matter. Yes I know, you will keep going on about political realities, ignore everything I put to counter and then claim I haven't rebutted or engaged over the six, edit: now seven, pages

Yes, to be honest I don't expect to convince you that the guy who Liu Bei insulted and whose execution was controversial due to Liu Bei's grudge was legitimate in prophecy, so you will keep repeating your stance. It is fine, you don't have to be persuaded to my point of view, I just wish you would cut out the insults of Zhang Yu. Maybe I can suggest a more intresting route of discussion though? Which other mystics/prophets/soothsayers of the era you feel were, not so much wrong (which can happen, 3kingdom people seem to have accepted that can happen without it denting a reputation), but traitorous/attacking legitimacy by their prophecy alone?

I literally used the Search topic thing. I summarised your infomation plus quote in this line: After that you claim I accepted slander. And I agreed that slandering to envoys was main charges.

Maybe if you stop snipping and read more you would understand. :wink:

So... you want to rebutt my point now?


This is the quote from De Crespiny in the ZTJ I used that pointed out the charges were Chi Lu slander
This attack by Chi Lü, referring to actions and associations of Kong Rong from ten years and more earlier, scraped the barrel to find causes for accusation, then categorised them overall as a pattern of treason.
and I had also pointed out
one is clear slander (raised army to overthrow Han)


Now to me Chi Lu was scrapping the barrel and coming up with every half truth and lie he could think of in hopes anything would stick. Not that Kong Rong actually badmouthed Cao Cao to Wu envoys. How do you read it then? Also do you believe Kong Rong rose an army and if not, why believe anything else Chi Lu is saying? Because at the time your response was that it was clear slander


Yeah? Because he already charged him? Plus the aformentioned hinting at Zhuge with his pretentious weed stuff. I dont care what you would do with the prophecy. Last I check you arent Liu, Zhang, Qiao or Zhuge.

The annontation does. Immediately after the entering Yi plus gifting part.

Err, I posted the annontation one already? And who did annontations again? :wink:

When it comes to rebutting my points? No. Rebutt the four points.

Do not dismiss but actually take the effort to rebutt

1) Why you thing the writer is wrong.

2) Why you thing the annontation is inaccurate or improper.

3) Why you think my Guan Zhong link is not appropriate or good enough.

4) Why the google definition of kindness and my definition of kindness seem to differ from your definition of kindness.


So if he it not confident in the charge, why not just point Zhuge Liang to the charge?

Ok amendments 33: Fu Zi has Zhao Jian dismissing Liu Bei's chances of conquest, Zhen Shi Fu Gan then provides a counter point to Zhao Jian's argument by showing the skill (including Guan Yu's) of Liu Bei and his forces so how he could not succeed, Dian Lue provides a mini bio of Zhao Jian. None of them particularly reference Liu Bei's actions in the immediate aftermath of his taking Yi

1) I have already addressed why I don't feel that incident was one of kindness. My argument to you on that in this thread is the same I would give to Mr So

2) Mr So's? That isn't the translators job to insert personal views into the translation

3) It was several centuries before so by your standards, completely different time frame :wink: That is his version of kindness. Cited by nobody in that instance

4) Your the one who objects to modern time frame references! :wink: I'm ok with you thinking that was kind or having a different version of kindness, as to why our differers, background, parentage and schooling perhaps. If I tried to claim doing my job was an act of kindness, I would have been rebuked for trying to turn what was simply my duty and obligation into something more
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:22 am

It's a contradiction in Liu Bei's life (the only time Liu Ping appears is in Liu Bei's sgz I believe) and yet, the historians said nothing.


http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Liu-Ping

Liu Ping was a general of Wu? And I still dont see how its related to Liu Bei life? Which part of the SGZ may I find Liu Ping?

You posted your stand on how the prophecy read before you knew the prophecy? I'm pretty sure is not what your claiming so somewhere we have got crossed wires and talking about two different things

Way more then I usually see in a debate at any rate


I meant the similar link plus the fact that I always believed Zhang Yu prophecy was never appropriate.

How many debate do you have that go up to 7 pages.

2) When I listed things you forgot, you denied you had forgotten these things. When I said what pages these things were on, you said you looked back and didn't find any of them. Yet I was able to find them and show you

3) but your not seeing the pattern of you forgetting


2) And I already countered this previously that it was too far back and I mentioned previously that I only looked past a few pages.

3) Occasionally when they are too far back or too similar to other links? Sure.

Sure, I have been arguing that it was Qiao Zhou building the case for name prophecy. You are the one who has spent pages seeming to feel as if there was something more then that, that it was dynastic connections and so on.


Err no. Im looking back right now and Im seeing me stating the same thing over and over again which was names as reasoning and the dynasties falling as evidence.

How long have you been in places like this? Yeah people joke and have a laugh, that is fine but they don't "your point is so bad, it is making me laugh" which is what you tend to use lmao for. You will quote a serious point someone made and go lmao and how other people take lmao's is not always "well he is taking my point seriously and thinks I'm wise" but their effort is being mocked. Few ill mind your strongly disagreeing with them in the rest of the post as you do but lmao and like risks being like a red rag to the bull

Snipping is just to shorten the post (explained further below). In terms of not engaging, yeah all those quotes, links and words I have written seemed to have slipped your mind. Six pages here, six pages in the first thread you created (note I am the only one who has done this) plus the Q&A stuff and so on. I do engage, I do discuss, I give reasons and answers, you just don't always like them which is a different matter entirely. I know your annoyed but if I didn't engage, providing all sorts of stuff, how do you think we have had such lengthy debates?

The Han's fall had been prophished plenty of times, I would just make sure I was careful who to tell it too

dum dum. Slander right there. Based purely on your dislike for the guy. No source calls him that, you can't have copypasted it and no historical account claims he acted without reason, it simply hasn't recorded the reasons

No, I'm recognizing that the only prophesy you attack is from a guy Liu Bei executes and you then proceed to launch slander and personal attacks on that guy. I do recognize that when I pressed you on the subject of Liu Bei sins, "you guess" that Liu Bei did these wrong with limited conviction. The spanking actually is a rare example of you showing force against Liu Bei and that is great


Long time. I obviously cant give you a number. Lmao no. I never use lmao to say your point is bad. Never. Stop making up things about me and then blaming me for it. Also, its not my fault that only you are taking offense to my lmao. And since when have I used lmao to mock your effort? Didnt we agree that I only use lmao immediately before or after I refute your point. Furthermore, Im not the one going around snipping points and dismissing it entirely. :roll:

You engaging in my point is one thing. You dismissing my point by snipping it and then either dismissing it or bringing up the same question again is another point entirely. These two things are not mutually exclusive. This is in contrast to me who have yet to snip your point and ALWAYS ALWAYS refute your point one by one.

And why do you have to be careful? :wink: Is it perhaps because you do not want to offend a regime based on Han Loyalism in a tense political era where the Han existence was in utmost danger? :wink:

Ehhh. IIRC, According to you way back, the definition of slander is accusing someone of doing or saying something the person never did or say. So not slander but insult is more appropriate. No account state that he gave reasons.

No, only insults, backed with logic plus the links that I gave. Yes. So whats your point, that Im biased in favour of Liu Bei. Im not criticising Zhang Yu because of Liu Bei. I literally claim that Liu Bei execution of Zhang Yu was unjust. Me liking Liu Bei and dissing Zhang Yu are two completely different things and not relevant to our discussion.

He didn't? Based on what? 1) off the top of my head that is true 2) where does it say that? 3) indeed 4) We have Zhuge Liang not knowing, not Zhang Yu. I would generally keep prophecies of doom private but I'm not as brave/confident as Guan Lu, Qiao Zhou, Zhu Juping, that mystic Liu Bei consults before Yiling in one annotation and so on

Yes and I addressed the realities for Zhang Yu before, you can go read it. I agree Qiao Zhou had plenty of political reality, the only thing I have attacked him for is attacking the foundation and legitimacy of his own dynasty feels bad form. I do remember the Brexit one and I addressed that at the time

I do snip yes and you free to snip, nothing in rules against that and has been common practise down the years. It is to keep quotes down to manageable length. I do read your every post and I respond to them. However I can understand how someone unused to forums like this would be offended by snipping and I should have been aware, explained what snipping is for so for that I apologize. I hope this has cleared up the matter

Qiao Zhou did, Zhang Yu never made any claim about it's legitimacy. About it's survival is another matter. Yes I know, you will keep going on about political realities, ignore everything I put to counter and then claim I haven't rebutted or engaged over the six, edit: now seven, pages

Yes, to be honest I don't expect to convince you that the guy who Liu Bei insulted and whose execution was controversial due to Liu Bei's grudge was legitimate in prophecy, so you will keep repeating your stance. It is fine, you don't have to be persuaded to my point of view, I just wish you would cut out the insults of Zhang Yu. Maybe I can suggest a more intresting route of discussion though? Which other mystics/prophets/soothsayers of the era you feel were, not so much wrong (which can happen, 3kingdom people seem to have accepted that can happen without it denting a reputation), but traitorous/attacking legitimacy by their prophecy alone?


Yep. Logically speaking, how do you that someone bore a grudge against you especially if they asked you for advice for a campaign and was known to have treated his surbodinates with kindness by accepting surrender then giving ranks plus gifts. 1) Liu Bei SGZ specifically state that which means Zhang Yu wouldnt know that Liu Bei bore a grudge if he hide his emotions. 2) He asked the person he grudged against for advice? 3) And so how would Zhang Yu knew? 4) Zhang Yu pleaded with Liu Bei to know what error he had done. Exactly.

And I refuted that already, which you may also go and read. Yes I know that, and already explained to you why Qiao Zhou had more legitimacy for that when compared to Zhang Yu. Sure.

Dont make up stuff. Im not offended that you snip. Im worried :wink: that I refute your point, you snip them, then ask the same question related to my rebuttal which shows that you never read my rebuttal properly.

And there you go. I literally answer this many times already. Zhang Yu literally did when it came to Liu Bei and East Han.

When the year reaches Geng-zi the realm will change hands. The reign of the Liu house will be over.


Although our lord will gain Yizhou he will lose it nine years later during the Yin-Mao time.”


I have yet to ignore anything lmao. Once again, stop making up stuff. I claim that you never rebutt some stuff not all 7 pages.

I agreed that the execution was wrong lmao. Nahh. Sure. I never said Zhang Yu was wrong. I argued that he was wrong at that time because political realities plus no reasonings. But since all his predictions came true without political realities plus reasonings, he is impressive and correct. Hmmm, how about those that are not backed by political realities and have no reasonings? :wink:

This is the quote from De Crespiny in the ZTJ I used that pointed out the charges were Chi Lu slander
This attack by Chi Lü, referring to actions and associations of Kong Rong from ten years and more earlier, scraped the barrel to find causes for accusation, then categorised them overall as a pattern of treason.
and I had also pointed out
one is clear slander (raised army to overthrow Han)


Now to me Chi Lu was scrapping the barrel and coming up with every half truth and lie he could think of in hopes anything would stick. Not that Kong Rong actually badmouthed Cao Cao to Wu envoys. How do you read it then? Also do you believe Kong Rong rose an army and if not, why believe anything else Chi Lu is saying? Because at the time your response was that it was clear slander


I do not see how this quote is relevant to the discussion? I agreed that Kong Rong was clear slander to the Wu envoys hence execution by clear slander part. With the clear slander being the badmouthing. Still waiting for rebuttal.

So if he it not confident in the charge, why not just point Zhuge Liang to the charge?

Ok amendments 33: Fu Zi has Zhao Jian dismissing Liu Bei's chances of conquest, Zhen Shi Fu Gan then provides a counter point to Zhao Jian's argument by showing the skill (including Guan Yu's) of Liu Bei and his forces so how he could not succeed, Dian Lue provides a mini bio of Zhao Jian. None of them particularly reference Liu Bei's actions in the immediate aftermath of his taking Yi

1) I have already addressed why I don't feel that incident was one of kindness. My argument to you on that in this thread is the same I would give to Mr So

2) Mr So's? That isn't the translators job to insert personal views into the translation

3) It was several centuries before so by your standards, completely different time frame :wink: That is his version of kindness. Cited by nobody in that instance

4) Your the one who objects to modern time frame references! :wink: I'm ok with you thinking that was kind or having a different version of kindness, as to why our differers, background, parentage and schooling perhaps. If I tried to claim doing my job was an act of kindness, I would have been rebuked for trying to turn what was simply my duty and obligation into something more


Because Zhuge Liang was not convinced enough? Like we discussed previously?

Fine. Fair enough. And thanks for rebutting my point instead of just snipping then dismissing it.

1) Yes you did. So... ... just to confirm, your argument is: I disagree with the writer viewpoint(Liu actions is kind) because my viewpoint is different( Liu actions not kind) so the writer is wrong.

2) So you attack the writer instead of his annotation. Very rude of you to attack someone who takes his time to translate and explain Liu Bei biography piece by piece. Lmao. :roll: By the way this does not in any way counter his annontation:

XL: It can be seen here that Liu Bei not only treated his own subordinates generously but also Liu Zhang’s generals and subordinates. We note that Liu Ba, who constantly avoided Liu Bei for many years, was promoted. Everyone was satisfied and Rafe De Crespigny mentions about Liu Bei’s amazing charisma and how he won the alleigance of people from all over China, from his home province of Zhuo (Jian Yong), to Xuzhou (Mi Zhu), the Jingzhou region and now the officials and generals of Yizhou.

3) Guan Zhong is unreliable? :wink: Compared to me and you?

4) No. I object comparisons that are not related to history. Unlike you who frequently use vague terms like "behaviour" to justify your comparisons When I compare political realities of Qiao and Zhang, I use political realities of today with Brexit and Trump. When I compare history( Liu Bei), I use history( Guan Zhong) as reference. Etc etc. Furthermore, now we are arguing kindness, so I use writer opinion, annontation( which admitedlly you have refuted after 2 pages), Guan Zhong and present day definition to back my stand. Im not just asking why our definition of kindness differs. Im also asking why you differ with google definition of kindness:

the definition of kindness:

the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.
"he thanked them for their kindness and support"
synonyms: kindliness, kind-heartedness, warm-heartedness, tender-heartedness, goodwill, affectionateness, affection, warmth, gentleness, tenderness, concern, care; More
a kind act.
plural noun: kindnesses
"it would be a kindness on your part to invite her"
synonyms: kind act, good deed, act of kindness, good turn, favour, act of assistance, service, help, aid
"she has done us many a kindness"

Is Liu Bei accepting surrender of enemies a form of favour? Yes.

Is Liu Bei giving gifts to said individuals a form of generosity? Yes.

Is Liu Bei giving them ranks after said individuals were alienated by previous regime a form of affection? Yes.

So is Liu Bei accepting surrender of enemy forces and treating them nicely kindness? Yes.

Feel free to rebutt.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:36 pm

It's a contradiction in Liu Bei's life (the only time Liu Ping appears is in Liu Bei's sgz I believe) and yet, the historians said nothing.


http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Liu-Ping

Liu Ping was a general of Wu? And I still dont see how its related to Liu Bei life? Which part of the SGZ may I find Liu Ping?


Are you referring to Liu Pi, the Yellow Turban bandit that Liu Bei supported in raiding Cao Cao's territory? Or the one in SGZ 2:871 where Liu Ziping/Liu Ping recommended Liu Bei serve as an officer in 187?
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:30 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:
It's a contradiction in Liu Bei's life (the only time Liu Ping appears is in Liu Bei's sgz I believe) and yet, the historians said nothing.


http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Liu-Ping

Liu Ping was a general of Wu? And I still dont see how its related to Liu Bei life? Which part of the SGZ may I find Liu Ping?


Are you referring to Liu Pi, the Yellow Turban bandit that Liu Bei supported in raiding Cao Cao's territory? Or the one in SGZ 2:871 where Liu Ziping/Liu Ping recommended Liu Bei serve as an officer in 187?


The Ziping/Ping one where one has him recommend, the other try to kill.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:45 am

Link?
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:14 pm

Liu Bei's sgz as I believe I have mentioned before, one is main text with Ping (also annotation 6) and the other is annotation 3 under Ziping.

Two questions Han, one helps me form my answer to a past question

1) Are you aware/read the jade statue story from Lady gan's sgz?

2) When I looked up Liu Ping in kongming encyclopaedia, I got two possible ones. If your only getting one, something has gone wrong which we might need to bring to James attention. How exactly are you searching in it?
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:41 pm

http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Liu-Ping-2
This would be the one you're referring to.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:23 pm

Liu Bei's sgz as I believe I have mentioned before, one is main text with Ping (also annotation 6) and the other is annotation 3 under Ziping.

Two questions Han, one helps me form my answer to a past question

1) Are you aware/read the jade statue story from Lady gan's sgz?

2) When I looked up Liu Ping in kongming encyclopaedia, I got two possible ones. If your only getting one, something has gone wrong which we might need to bring to James attention. How exactly are you searching in it?


Thanks. Found it.

What past question?

1) Other than Liu Bei being obsess with it I dont know the details. Iirc it was just some folktale stuff.

2) I google ' Liu Ping rotk'. Regardless I already found it thanks to Daolun



http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Liu-Ping-2
This would be the one you're referring to.


Thanks.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:36 pm

If you want to find results on KMA quicker through google, search Liu Ping Kongming, or whoever else you want to know. Typically if there are more than one result, they pop up at the top of the list.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:55 pm

Oh I See. Thanks.
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