Propganda and Prophecy

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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:19 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Been asked to set my main stance. Two issues really

Zhang Yu: I have no issue with his prophecy, I don't think a man engaging in prophecy should go "and everything will be lovely" if the genuine prediction is a negative one as that would be dishonest (not advertising it on the other hand is wise). Of the three "will fall" prophecies, I feel Qiao Zhou is going a bit too far becuase he is undermining Shu's claims to legitimacy that he had signed, Du Qiong and Zhang Yu kept it within prediction/prophecy. I wish, like I do with many more prophecy guys, we had more of a sense of how he made prophecy including his fatal one but that is an issue with Chen Shou rather then Zhang Yu or the others. I think it speaks poorly of Liu Bei that he held a grudge against Zhang Yu for being wittier then him and that it led to Zhang Yu's death

Liu Bei appointing people+giving gifts after taking Yi: It is good warlordship, building support in his new regime, setting up a good administration, I just don't think it is kind since appointments is his job and giving gifts was a way of building support as it had been pre conquest. Liu Bei's appointments were a good one which shows his skill with using talent. I don't think doing your job (appointments) or doing something to benefit your self (gifts) is kind, others will disagree and I have no issue with that. The initial discussion was due to Han's misreading of a passage (which is fair enough, we have all done that) so we disagreed on what the texts said.


Sure.

Zhang Yu: RDC clearly mentioned that Zhang Yu words were treacherous. Lady Wu using SGZ 12 clearly mentioned that Zhang Yu words were misspoken. Zhang Yu trying to keep it private behind close doors but someone exposing him shows that at the very least it was a sensitive issue. Liu Bei regime basing of Han Loyalism and Cao Cao being Han traitor shows that goiing around spreading that the Han will fall would not sit well with said Han Loyalist. Its obvious that Zhang Yu would not be tolerated due to his treacherous words. Especially when one factors in that he already pissed out Liu Bei and gave an advice that was not great short term. Was Liu Bei wrong to execute Zhang Yu? Yes. Ive supported this stand since the very beginning. But at the same time, Zhang Yu was an aboslute fool going around behind close doors saying that his country - 400 year old Dynasty - will fall while being in midst of Civil War and a very high tension political situation. Then you add that he guranteed that Liu Bei will fall which would obviously anger pretty much everyone and you will understand why Liu Bei murdered him.

I misread an annontation. But yes, my bad. Anyway, giving gifts and promotions is good warlordship obviously. And it is my petsonal opinion that its also kindness. These two actions are not mutually exclusive.

According to google definition of kindness:

the quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.
"he thanked them for their kindness and support"
synonyms: kindliness, kind-heartedness, warm-heartedness, tender-heartedness, goodwill, affectionateness, affection, warmth, gentleness, tenderness, concern, care; More
a kind act.
plural noun: kindnesses
"it would be a kindness on your part to invite her"
synonyms: kind act, good deed, act of kindness, good turn, favour, act of assistance, service, help, aid
"she has done us many a kindness"

Is Liu Bei accepting surrender of enemies a form of favour? Yes.

Is Liu Bei giving gifts to said individuals a form of generosity? Yes.

Is Liu Bei giving them ranks after said individuals were alienated by previous regime a form of affection? Yes.

So is Liu Bei accepting surrender of enemy forces and treating them nicely kindness? Yes.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:54 pm

Han wrote:
When I said the other stuff was about name prophecy being legitimate rather then about, why didn't that reassure you at the time?

I'm making clear that two historians doing the same thing (quoting only the Liu Bei/Shan stuff) was something I learnt after my shortening to that section.


About what? Regardless it wasnt purely names, it was also related to the downfall various dynasties.

Which was why I was against leaving out vital information. :wink: :roll:

In complete seriousness, I actually did post a similar passage that you typed from the book. The passage that I posted contained the Liu Bei, Liu Feng and Liu Shan thing. When I asked you if it was similar to the book, you agreed that it was more or less the same.


Sorry, "When I said the other stuff was about name prophecy being legitimate rather then about Shu" No it was about establishing name prophecy works

I left no vital information out.

Yes I did though different wording caused confusion for a time. I'm unclear on the point your making with that



Again, lmao is used everywhere. I was giving reddit and quora as examples of internet forums to back up my stand. The overall argument still stands.

I honestly do not know how to reply to this. Lmao.

1) You can take it as a joke - which is my intention - or you can dismiss it - which isnt my intention. 2) One without reasons is. There is a reason why Lady Wu felt that his words were misspoken. 3) But we do know that out of the 3 famed soothsayers of Shu Han, only Zhang Yu has no recorded reasons nor political situation to back his arguments. And not just a 1 time thing but for all 3 of his predictions. 4) Misspoken words.

What does this paragraph mean? Are you using sarcasm again?

Liu Bei spanked an inspector because the inspector was unwilling to have a conversation with him. The execution was not wrong.

Rafe De Crespigny describes Zhang Yu execution as

Zhang Yu later joined Liu Bei's staff, and in 218
Liu Bei consulted him on his plans to attack Hanzhong.
Zhang Yu warned against the idea, but the campaign
proved successful. About the same time, moreover,
he made the private comment that it was time for the
dynasty to change, that fortune had left the house of
Liu, and that Liu Bei would lose Yi province nine
years from the time he gained it. His words leaked out
and, despite protests from Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei had
Zhang Yu executed for his treasonous prophecy and on
account of the old insult.
Likewise, Lady Wu described Zhang Yu words as misspoken.

And again, all of them did gave reasonings. During his pillage of ChengDu, he only targeted the treasury or at least only gave his soldiers orders to target the treachery. In Runan, he actively worked with bandits to pillage. I dont really blame Liu Bei for his treachery because double dealing was common during wars. I blame his hypocrisy.


lmao was dealt with by Sun Fin

That's fair enough

1) It isn't really a joke, a joke is an attempt at humour but your not saying anything funny about the guy, your just landing insults and continuing when you know the other party involved doesn't find it amusing. 2) No it isn't. It is unfortunate reasons were not recorded for many soothsayers. Again Lady Wu translated, not her personal view 3) If you believe the Liu Bei annotation on that Yiling mystic, there was another that predicted bad things for Liu Bei with no reasoning given. Even if you don't, one was Chen Shou's mentor and the other was his mentor's mentor. Zhang Yu was the one not connected to Chen Shou, 4) other translation is divulged

Not sarcasm. I do try to avoid doing things that you ask me not to. I acknowledged mystic was wrong word so swapped it out to show the point I was making

Spanking sounds like BDSM. What Liu Bei did was assault. I'm also now confused becuase you have gone I literally claim that Liu Bei execution of Zhang Yu was unjust and now your saying it is right

I have noted you quoting that book recently. Recently got a copy? Yes Professor Rafe does use the term treasonous while pointing to Liu Bei's grudge but I also note the reaction of his fellows and that Liu Bei tried to cover up the real reason. Misspoke/divulged is a translation matter which I'm not qualified to comment on

I gave you soothsayers that had no reasoning recorded (apart from Dong Fu which I said at the time). To be honest, I just consider hypocrisy as part of the definition of warlord and I still don't see the problem with Runan but each to their own

Liu Bei reputation is based of his honour[personality] not his generalship[skill].

1) Actually, there are zero records that shows Zhang Yu made his predictions of physiognomy other than reading himself... 2) Liu Bei was not professional when it came to dealing with his surbodinates. Same with the other warlords. They all frequently held grudges against great people and gave favour to men of dubious personalities. 3) Zhang Yu joined Liu Bei at 214. In 215 Liu Bei dealt with Sun Quan. From 217 to 219, Liu Bei dealt with Hanzhong. So at most Zhang Yu was with Liu Bei for on off 2 years. Regular? Eh... not with a guy who was a master at keeping his emotions and thoughts to himself. Just because Zhang Yu read his own face doesnt meant he was a super master of physiognomyist. Of Shu Han, Du Qiong and Qiao Zhou did. 4) Sure?

Du Qiong wasnt Qiao Zhou or Chen Shou teacher... so this argument doesnt really work.

Expect what? No one is expecting anyone to tell a ruler whose regime was based on Han Loyalism that the Han will definitely 100% gurantee fail. Thats career suicide. Especially in a political situation where the Han Emperor was held hostage.


It is true Liu Bei was famed for many things, none of which make him a good target (let alone some important posts) to insult him. As a commander he built his initial reputation as a miliatry officer, was constantly hired and used as a commander (Zan, Tao Qian, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, Liu Zhang), Liu Bei was sometimes used in contrast to Cao Cao as miliatry abilities (not in a "he sucks" way but "if someone like Liu Bei can't match Cao Cao, how can you?"), Rafe notes him as an effective fighting general. It isn't his best attribute by any means, it was his charisma and ambition that really drew the eye, but he had reputation as a commander.

1) The SGZ literally mentions his fame in that sphere. It doesn't give us examples outside of predicting his death but I would assume doesn't get famous for doing something once 2) they also sometimes had to lump someone they didn't like. It is true that 3kingdom warlords are not the ideal example of professionalism with appointments due to favouritism 3) Dealing with Sun Quan? Do you mean that brief time he reinforced Guan Yu? Your saying Zhang Yu can't have got a sense over that time or accompanied Liu Bei on camapign? Yes Chen Shou's mentor and the mentor of Chen Shou's mentor got detailed records unlike other predictors

Not Chen Shou's but he was Qiao Zhou's teacher. Qiao Zhou had other teachers like Qin Mi but Du Qiong went beyond that, he was a huge influence on Qiao Zhou and his leaning to the Yang traditions/celestial arts and through that was a hero of Chen Shou's

Exactly

Not really. I dont miss anything considering the fact that I mostly copypasta what you write then start off my rebuttal. Instead of you know... snipping...

More like a lmao ok.

RDC claims its treacherous. Lady Wu refers to it as misspoken. You are the only one arguing otherwise. Ahh so a historical source that refers to Zhang Yu as misspoken? That works for me too lmao. Or maybe out of all 4 predictions Zhang Yu made, only 1 had reasoning which was his dumb dumb face... showing that there isnt much to work with in the first place. Fair enough, but he did gave reasonings.


So why have you responded to none of the seven points?

He doesn't say it attacked the legitimacy and he doesn't cover the predictions of the other two. No she doesn't so please stop saying that. Nobody in Shu, no historian in the east has condemned Zhang Yu for treason or claimed he undermined legitimacy. Your the only one claiming it undermined Shu's legitimacy. Again soothsayers that were not Chen Shou's personal mentor and mentor got shafted like that

Which was in section 12 where all my arguments for Kong Rong is based off.

You do know that the only Kong Rong SGZ describes Kong Rong death? You do know that common sense means that discussion on Kong Rong means at the very least Kong Rong SGZ will be used? You do know that every person who has a SGZ will have their deaths stated in the SGZ?


To be honest, most of us wouldn't associate section anything with sgz, it is easier just to say "so and so's SGZ". Particularly with people not always aware what sgz is translated thanks to xuesangou's new works

Really? Your saying it isn't mentioned anywhere in all the other SGZ? Good to know. You do know Rong's SGZ being translated is new? Why not tell me which SGZ Ang being mourned by Cao Cao is in or which SGZ Qiao Zhou's prophecies are in? SGZ has some stuff in odd places.

Sure.

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+givi ... e&ie=UTF-8

1) In what world do you live in that giving gifts isnt kindness. Giving gifts while having ill intent isnt kindness. But giving gifts solely for the sake of giving is. If not kindness than at least an act of goodwill. Likewise, giving gifts along with promotions is kindness. Good warlordship and kindness isnt mutually exclusive. And I understand everything, on the event that I dont, I will definitely inform you.

2) Lmao. Am I suppose to respond to this?

3) Sure. I'm not the one constantly trying to push my views on others, I am happy for you and I to have a different views.

4) Only partially. Crucial events plays a more important role.

The higher ups and senior members... like Qiao Zhou... wouldnt. They may not panic or hold an outright pessimistic view. But the prestige of their government - if not - their country wouldnt.

Sure.


1) In a world with secret Santa, landlords for sex, gifts for your pupils teachers for the sake of your own child. Sure giving gifts solely to make a person happy with no benefit to yourself is kindness, giving gifts to get popularity may be wise but is not kind

So how was I supposed to interpret
I dont understand this line?
just for future reference? Since "I don't understand this line" doesn't apparently mean you don't understand

2) You went "Just because its his personal view doesnt mean its wrong.", I agreed. I have not been accusing him of anything more then disagreeing about kindness (other then disagreement about commentating in translation). I have no point pressed you or him about views on kindness

3) I'll argue freely and happily (usually) on 3kingdom matters and sure, I'll argue my corner hard on those unless someone asks to "agree to disagree" or something like that. If that has ever made you uncomfortable and wishing I would drop a matter then I do apologize, if you wish to let me of any part of this debate you wish dropped then please let me know and don't worrying about saying so in future.

On the kindness issue, your the one who has constantly tried to bring in kindness and argued and argued your point, not in a "this is my views" but "why you are wrong", brought in google while I do not think I have done anything to push the matter. My giving examples of when I think Liu Bei has been kind, my acknowledging that we both have different attitudes towards Liu Bei and Cao Cao's deeds on when they were kind has not been enough for you. It has gone beyond trying to get me to flesh out my views for you (which was fair enough) into you constantly pushing and pushing me for pages now to accept your version of kindness

4) that's your view of the world

On 'He had used gifts to curry favour before and it is a common way of gaining favour.' Dont get me wrong, giving gifts did happen occasionally and was an act of favour[ plus kindness and goodwill] but I dont think Liu Bei ever did so before. And it was not common. In fact, excluding Shi Xie, giving gifts exclusive of government rewards did not really happen much.


Sorry, I misremembered passage in ZZTJ where he received gifts on arriving in Yi, my very bad. I do note there are quite a few figures who (example Yuan Huan) noted for refusing or giving away gifts so it doesn't seem rare

1) Giving gifts and promotions did benefit them... if not they would just try to defect or try to stay at home... instead of being satisfied...

2) Obviously. By giving gifts to establish himself with a repuation of confucian ideal of kindness and virtue.

3) My overall point is that your job in 21st Century is irrelevant to Ancient China warlordship.

4) And kind. Not mutually exclusive and all that...


1) Thus the "it benefits them"

2) and "support me and you get well rewarded". There is a fair few things like his treatment of the late Hou Jun or enemies like Liu Ba were Liu Bei was kind but not this

3) Your the one who asked about it, not me

4) I think I have set out my points enough times. I'm sorry my views on kindness are are not acceptable to you
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: Propganda and Prophecy

Unread postby Han » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:49 pm

Sorry, "When I said the other stuff was about name prophecy being legitimate rather then about Shu" No it was about establishing name prophecy works

I left no vital information out.

Yes I did though different wording caused confusion for a time. I'm unclear on the point your making with that


It wasnt purely name prophecy. The various dynasties falling played an important role. It wasnt just these 'dudes had bad names so they would fall'. It was first, Dukes sons had bad names so they fell to civil war, the laat two Emperors of East Han had bad names so their Dynasty was usurped. And therefore, since Shan and Feng were bad names, Shu Han would fall due to the previous examples of Dynasties. The downfall of the Dynasties played an important role on Qiao Zhou overall point. Overall, Qiao Zhou prediction was based on Names, History and political realities giving support for his predictions.

You left the word play out.

Nothing really.

1) It isn't really a joke, a joke is an attempt at humour but your not saying anything funny about the guy, your just landing insults and continuing when you know the other party involved doesn't find it amusing. 2) No it isn't. It is unfortunate reasons were not recorded for many soothsayers. Again Lady Wu translated, not her personal view 3) If you believe the Liu Bei annotation on that Yiling mystic, there was another that predicted bad things for Liu Bei with no reasoning given. Even if you don't, one was Chen Shou's mentor and the other was his mentor's mentor. Zhang Yu was the one not connected to Chen Shou, 4) other translation is divulged

Not sarcasm. I do try to avoid doing things that you ask me not to. I acknowledged mystic was wrong word so swapped it out to show the point I was making

Spanking sounds like BDSM. What Liu Bei did was assault. I'm also now confused becuase you have gone I literally claim that Liu Bei execution of Zhang Yu was unjust and now your saying it is right

I have noted you quoting that book recently. Recently got a copy? Yes Professor Rafe does use the term treasonous while pointing to Liu Bei's grudge but I also note the reaction of his fellows and that Liu Bei tried to cover up the real reason. Misspoke/divulged is a translation matter which I'm not qualified to comment on

I gave you soothsayers that had no reasoning recorded (apart from Dong Fu which I said at the time). To be honest, I just consider hypocrisy as part of the definition of warlord and I still don't see the problem with Runan but each to their own


1) It is an attempt of humour actually, and I personally find it amusing. 2) Translated from SGZ. So its SGZ view? 3) That was an annontation which means Biographies of Deities and Immortals. Forgive me if Im going to brush it off. But I find it unlikely that out of all his non personal prophecies, not a single reasoning was given considering that he spreaded two of them around in private. 4) Source?

I honestly still dont get your point.

It was what happened. Sure. Im referring to Liu Bei spanking official. As in course of actions was ok. But the action itself was an overreaction.

Yes. Ok and? He still referred to Zhang Yu prophecy as treasonous. Just because Liu Bei executed Zhang Yu because he was internally salty does not change the fact that Zhang Yu prophecy was treasonous. So do you agree with Rafe that Zhang Yu prophecy was treasonous?

Zhu Jianping gave hardships for the first 3 and military disaster for the 4th. But I will give you Dun.

It is true Liu Bei was famed for many things, none of which make him a good target (let alone some important posts) to insult him. As a commander he built his initial reputation as a miliatry officer, was constantly hired and used as a commander (Zan, Tao Qian, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Biao, Liu Zhang), Liu Bei was sometimes used in contrast to Cao Cao as miliatry abilities (not in a "he sucks" way but "if someone like Liu Bei can't match Cao Cao, how can you?"), Rafe notes him as an effective fighting general. It isn't his best attribute by any means, it was his charisma and ambition that really drew the eye, but he had reputation as a commander.

1) The SGZ literally mentions his fame in that sphere. It doesn't give us examples outside of predicting his death but I would assume doesn't get famous for doing something once 2) they also sometimes had to lump someone they didn't like. It is true that 3kingdom warlords are not the ideal example of professionalism with appointments due to favouritism 3) Dealing with Sun Quan? Do you mean that brief time he reinforced Guan Yu? Your saying Zhang Yu can't have got a sense over that time or accompanied Liu Bei on camapign? Yes Chen Shou's mentor and the mentor of Chen Shou's mentor got detailed records unlike other predictors

Not Chen Shou's but he was Qiao Zhou's teacher. Qiao Zhou had other teachers like Qin Mi but Du Qiong went beyond that, he was a huge influence on Qiao Zhou and his leaning to the Yang traditions/celestial arts and through that was a hero of Chen Shou's

Exactly


No look. Liu Bei was all these things yes. But when RDC described Liu Bei was a man of honour, he was clearly mentioning his character reputation as he only mentioned the fact that Liu Bei served many different lords, and not his military accomplishments or anything else. That will come later at the end.

1) Im not disputing that Zhang Yu was famous for prophecy. Im disputing the fact that you claim Zhang Yu prophecies were based of physiognomy. For all we know, Zhang Yu various prophecies could be based of star readings. 2) When Cao, Liu and Sun were first starting out or were in desperate situations? Yes. But once their base were secured, not really. Cao Cao especially would commit numerous purges. 3) Yes and yes. And Zhang Yu made at least 4 different prophecies and all except his personal one had no reasons recorded.

Fair enough.

Exactly what? That Zhang Yu spreaded privately treasonous prophecies.

So why have you responded to none of the seven points?

He doesn't say it attacked the legitimacy and he doesn't cover the predictions of the other two. No she doesn't so please stop saying that. Nobody in Shu, no historian in the east has condemned Zhang Yu for treason or claimed he undermined legitimacy. Your the only one claiming it undermined Shu's legitimacy. Again soothsayers that were not Chen Shou's personal mentor and mentor got shafted like that


What were the 7 points again?

He literally stated Zhang Yu prophecies were treasonous. Her translation did. Why would East historians discuss Zhang Yu? He was an extremely minor figure in comparison to other people of Shu Han. Even then, Zhang Yu was proven correct, so said historiams have nothing to gain by arguing against him. Not really Shu Han legitimacy but more of angering Han loyalism which Liu Bei and his regime would naturally take seriously. Most soothsayers that had their conversations recorded usually gave reasonings.

To be honest, most of us wouldn't associate section anything with sgz, it is easier just to say "so and so's SGZ". Particularly with people not always aware what sgz is translated thanks to xuesangou's new works

Really? Your saying it isn't mentioned anywhere in all the other SGZ? Good to know. You do know Rong's SGZ being translated is new? Why not tell me which SGZ Ang being mourned by Cao Cao is in or which SGZ Qiao Zhou's prophecies are in? SGZ has some stuff in odd places.


Thats some dumb logic. We are discussing Kong Rong so OBVIOUSLY I would be using his SGZ as reference which was located in section 12. I also mentioned section 12 before as list of gentry Cao Cao killed and Kong Rong was OBVIOUSLY one of them.

Look. Every single figure that had their SGZ portion would ALWAYS have their recorded death recorded in their own section. This is common sense. Kong Rong SGZ being new does not change common sense. We are discussing Kong Rong circumstances behind his death. I can immediately tell you now without even checking that Cao Ang death was definitely at least in Cao Ang SGZ or the section its under and Qiao Zhou death was at least in Qiao Zhou SGZ or the section its under. Again, common sense. If a person death is recorded, it will at least be part of his or her biography. Common sense.

1) In a world with secret Santa, landlords for sex, gifts for your pupils teachers for the sake of your own child. Sure giving gifts solely to make a person happy with no benefit to yourself is kindness, giving gifts to get popularity may be wise but is not kind

So how was I supposed to interpret
I dont understand this line?
just for future reference? Since "I don't understand this line" doesn't apparently mean you don't understand

2) You went "Just because its his personal view doesnt mean its wrong.", I agreed. I have not been accusing him of anything more then disagreeing about kindness (other then disagreement about commentating in translation). I have no point pressed you or him about views on kindness

3) I'll argue freely and happily (usually) on 3kingdom matters and sure, I'll argue my corner hard on those unless someone asks to "agree to disagree" or something like that. If that has ever made you uncomfortable and wishing I would drop a matter then I do apologize, if you wish to let me of any part of this debate you wish dropped then please let me know and don't worrying about saying so in future.

On the kindness issue, your the one who has constantly tried to bring in kindness and argued and argued your point, not in a "this is my views" but "why you are wrong", brought in google while I do not think I have done anything to push the matter. My giving examples of when I think Liu Bei has been kind, my acknowledging that we both have different attitudes towards Liu Bei and Cao Cao's deeds on when they were kind has not been enough for you. It has gone beyond trying to get me to flesh out my views for you (which was fair enough) into you constantly pushing and pushing me for pages now to accept your version of kindness

4) that's your view of the world


1) Giving gifts for sex is obviously ill intent. Giving gifts for popularity isnt ill intent.

When I meant I dont understand this line it means I dont understand this line.

2) So are you agreeing to disagree with that guy or are you going to rebutt his points?

3) Haha. Im not uncomfortable or worrying about anything.

Im actually using google JUST to flesh out my points! My definitions. Im not pushing anything into anyone. Im just explaining why your definition is flawed.

4) Convincing argument. Are you actually going to rebutt it?

Sorry, I misremembered passage in ZZTJ where he received gifts on arriving in Yi, my very bad. I do note there are quite a few figures who (example Yuan Huan) noted for refusing or giving away gifts so it doesn't seem rare


Im sure that giving gifts were not rare under normal circumstances like weddings and visits and such. But after conquering a province, most warlords just stop with government rewards, promotions and praises. Only Liu Bei did all that, then went beyond, personally gaving gifts that were not official government rewards as far as I know.

1) Thus the "it benefits them"

2) and "support me and you get well rewarded". There is a fair few things like his treatment of the late Hou Jun or enemies like Liu Ba were Liu Bei was kind but not this

3) Your the one who asked about it, not me

4) I think I have set out my points enough times. I'm sorry my views on kindness are are not acceptable to you


1) You clearly said ' It may be great for them but your still doing something to benefit yourself, not for them' when do you mention it benefits them?

2) More like Im presenting gifts because we just conquered a province and I want to show everyone Im kind.

3) Yes and its to show you your job in 21st Century is irrelevant to Ancient China warlordship.

4) Haha. Please dont apologise for this.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
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