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Dong Zhuo's court and sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:27 pm
by Shao Shanshu
I guess it’s more of an etiquette question, but maybe somebody can reply it.

I remember this picture from every movie and many games: a palace assembly, and lots of officials in black and red robes stand before the throne in two rows. Military people are in red. Civilians (supposedly the better part of the statesmen) are in black.

However, for me it’s always a bit of confusion, when I try to assign some person to this or that category.

Let’s take Dong Zhuo’s court of late 189 or early 190. When the heroic general Lu Zhi spoke out against removal of the young Emperor he was a Master of Writing. Was he a civilian? Or should he be standing with the military men due to his military background? Colonel of the City Gates, Wu Qiong, was he a military official or rather a civilian one? Grand Commandant Liu Yu – where was he standing?

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and a sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:08 pm
by Dong Zhou
I would assume Zhu Jun and Liu Yu counts as civil officer, Professor Rafe has the colonel as a civil rank

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:33 pm
by Shao Shanshu
So was Grand Commandant civil, not military?
And Commandant-in-Chief (as Liu Yu was transferred to that post to make space for Dong Zhuo)?

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and a sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:50 pm
by Dong Zhou
Liu Yu was in the north handling Gongsun Zan's less then successful wars with the Wuhuan and pacifying You so his roles were symbolic (also there was a bidding war for Liu Yu's support). Grand Tutor was civil but tended for symbolism, Grand Marshal I believe is miliatry

Professor Rafe did an explanation of the civil structure

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:44 am
by Shao Shanshu
Thank you for the link.

Okay, if one would imagine Dong Zhuo's court (say, of early 190 before the coalition started), who would be standing with the reds and who with the blacks? Let's say, the most prominent or noteworthy dozen of people for each row.

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and a sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:24 pm
by Shao Shanshu
Dong Zhou wrote:Professor Rafe has the colonel as a civil rank

Dong Zhou wrote:Professor Rafe did an explanation of the civil structure


I've looked through both the link you sent me and another one, on military organisation, and have noticed that lots of positions come up in both files. For example, [Colonel] Director of Retainers (sili xiaowei), or Colonel of the City Gates [chengmen xiaowei], or Superintendent of the Imperial Household (guanglu xun).

So, it's rather confusing to me, as it seemed the difference between civil and military officials at a given point of time should have been distinct.

:?

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and a sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:20 pm
by waywardauthor
Shao Shanshu wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Professor Rafe has the colonel as a civil rank

Dong Zhou wrote:Professor Rafe did an explanation of the civil structure


I've looked through both the link you sent me and another one, on military organisation, and have noticed that lots of positions come up in both files. For example, [Colonel] Director of Retainers (sili xiaowei), or Colonel of the City Gates [chengmen xiaowei], or Superintendent of the Imperial Household (guanglu xun).

So, it's rather confusing to me, as it seemed the difference between civil and military officials at a given point of time should have been distinct.

:?

I believe military positions in the capital had more civil duties than those outside the capital.

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:07 pm
by Shao Shanshu
I guess, the argument is not very relevant, as such titles as Sili xiaowei and Guanglu xun existed only in the capital region, and are listed by de Crespigny in both "civil administration" and "military organisation".

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:18 pm
by Jolt
Shao Shanshu wrote:I guess, the argument is not very relevant, as such titles as Sili xiaowei and Guanglu xun existed only in the capital region, and are listed by de Crespigny in both "civil administration" and "military organisation".


I suppose those roles had authority or duties in both areas.

Modern day positions like military governors and ministers of defence are examples of military-civilian hybrid roles. You can even stretch the limit a bit and consider paramilitary forces like the police and the American National Guard hybrid civilian-military organizations, like the roles in questions. It's about playing a double role of administration or order enforcement, with the backing or organization of armed forces.

So they can fit in both shoes.

Re: Dong Zhuo's court and sorting out the etiquette

Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:09 pm
by Shao Shanshu
Jolt wrote:So they can fit in both shoes.


Thanks for the reply, Jolt.
But one can't stand in both red and black, both on the left and on the right side of the hall. One has to know one's place. Where was theirs?