Sun Clan starting position

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Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Havie » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:44 am

Hey guys,
Im back again with yet another thread in regards to my Shogun2 Mod.

Im wondering how and where to start WU exactly.

first off let me say its pretty hard to choose an exact time or year for the campaign to begin because theres so much movement, like should liu bei be in Xu province or Cheng Dou etc otherwise you never end up with Shu in the South West.

So this is going to be loosely based on the best parts for each faction, mainly like the rival warlords time peroid near 195.

So my question for Wu is this.

I would like to start with Sun Jian still alive, as he is a pimp character with a great character model, If i remember correctly He dies on a campaign against Liu Biao? True?
I was going to start Sun Jian on Liu Biaos lands and the player will have to win the battle to get him out alive, as kind of like a reward for changing history in a sense

Rotk13 has Sunjian starting in Chang Sha, but then the next campaign forward, has Sun Ce starting out in LuJiang (which would trigger how wu has to expand and take Jianye from Liu Yao, Wu from Yan Baihu , and Juji from Wang Lang which Im familiar with from the dw games)


My question is, Where should Wu start (1-2 provinces max)
Lu Jiang and Changsha are pretty far away from eachother, and you have Yuzhang in the middle, was this not occupied by Wu? What is with this moving around crap, or is this just something Koei had to do for purposes of certain factions not starting with too much land?

Thoughts please and ty
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:18 am

It depends on what year you start at.

Sun Jian wound up as administrator of Changsha, but when the coalition against Dong Zhuo formed, Sun Jian went north to serve Sun Jian. He eventually wound up as inspector of Yuzhou, but died in battle. His troops went to his nephew, Sun Ben. By 194, Yuan Shu was looking towards Yangzhou; Liu Yao was building a power base there, while Sun Ben and Wu Jing (Sun Ce's maternal uncle) were building a rival power base that officially served Yuan Shu but already less-than-thrilled with Yuan Shu. Sun Ce joined them, was promptly accepted as leader by Sun Ben, and they stayed there until 280.

As for Liu Bei, he was all over the map. He ran Anxi county (Zhongshan commandery, Jizhou) after the turbans, then serving Gongsun Zan in Youzhou, then prefect of Pingyuan (western Qingzhou) under Tian Kai (who served Gongsun Zan), then serving Tao Qian (Xuzhou), then ruling Xuzhou, then running Xiaopei (eastern Yuzhou), then inspector of Yuzhou, then running Xuzhou again, then up north with Yuan Shao, then helping Liu Pi rebel in Runan (southern Yuzhou), then serving Liu Biao in Xinye (northern Jingzhou), then running the southern half of Jingzhou, then running Yizhou, where he became emperor of Shu. That's thirteen postings in seven different zhous, so it REALLY depends on when you start your mod.

If you're going with 195, Sun Ce is in Yangzhou and Liu Bei is in either Xuzhou or Xiaopei (eastern Yuzhou), depending on when in 195.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Havie » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:57 am

DragonAtma wrote:It depends on what year you start at.

Sun Jian wound up as administrator of Changsha, but when the coalition against Dong Zhuo formed, Sun Jian went north to serve Sun Jian. He eventually wound up as inspector of Yuzhou, but died in battle. His troops went to his nephew, Sun Ben. By 194, Yuan Shu was looking towards Yangzhou; Liu Yao was building a power base there, while Sun Ben and Wu Jing (Sun Ce's maternal uncle) were building a rival power base that officially served Yuan Shu but already less-than-thrilled with Yuan Shu. Sun Ce joined them, was promptly accepted as leader by Sun Ben, and they stayed there until 280.

As for Liu Bei, he was all over the map. He ran Anxi county (Zhongshan commandery, Jizhou) after the turbans, then serving Gongsun Zan in Youzhou, then prefect of Pingyuan (western Qingzhou) under Tian Kai (who served Gongsun Zan), then serving Tao Qian (Xuzhou), then ruling Xuzhou, then running Xiaopei (eastern Yuzhou), then inspector of Yuzhou, then running Xuzhou again, then up north with Yuan Shao, then helping Liu Pi rebel in Runan (southern Yuzhou), then serving Liu Biao in Xinye (northern Jingzhou), then running the southern half of Jingzhou, then running Yizhou, where he became emperor of Shu. That's thirteen postings in seven different zhous, so it REALLY depends on when you start your mod.

If you're going with 195, Sun Ce is in Yangzhou and Liu Bei is in either Xuzhou or Xiaopei (eastern Yuzhou), depending on when in 195.


okay okay very interesting, but Sun Jian died in battle where? when and against who?
( know liu beis journey is a mess, and I have a somewhat decent solution on where to start him)

Whats confusing for me is WU is thought of to be south east, Like Yang province area, JianYe, Wu, Huiji right? Wu should start more in that area to fulfill the way the story unfolds i would think.

Sorry if im a total noob here, but most of my education comes from Koei..... where is Yangzhou? The map i using to make this is from ROTK13, and for some reason they do not use this name.

I would assume its either Jianye or LuJiang on this map.
http://i.imgur.com/05pbNMf.jpg
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Fornadan » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:18 am

You might find this map useful

https://bookofjin.files.wordpress.com/2 ... deries.png

There's a lot more in the map thread

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23206
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:26 am

Sun Jian died at Xiangyang against Liu Biao in 191 or 192.

In RoTK 13, Yangzhou is made up of the cities of Jianye, Wu, Huiji, Yuzhang, Jian'an, Lujiang and Shouchun. Or, in other words, Yangzhou means Yang province. ;)

The thing is, like DragonAtma said, the Suns only ended up in that area when Sun Ce conquered it for Yuan Shu around 195/196. Before that, they weren't really an own faction if you disregard Sun Jian's position as Administrator of Changsha. They were just part of Yuan Shu's force, until Yuan's blunder of declaring himself emperor and turning the whole country against him.

I've never played Shogun2, but if there isn't some sort of event system that is capable of changing city occupation, I think it would be difficult to model the Suns' position in the first half of the 190's. Same with Liu Bei.
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Fornadan » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:03 am

One possibility, if it's easier to mod in leaders by event, is to keep the factions geography based rather than person based.
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Havie » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:21 pm

Ah thank you guys very helpful, that map helps alot.

Another problem here that i will have is naming regions.

In Shogun2 the system is set up where theres the province, and 1 main town per province.
So like Yang province, main town Wu.
Problem here is theres also Lujiang and Kuaiji in this province.
So I can either do like Province Yang1-Wu Yang2-Kuaiji Yang3-LuJiang, or i guess i could just name all of these provinces like that in the code, then on screen change them to only say Yang , unsure if this would confuse players during gameplay.
Should be Okay. I think ill do it this way.


Hmm this SunJian start position will be difficult, if I position his army at XiangYang (and the main town of WU back at Yu Zhang/JianYe or LuJiang area) that leaves a large chunk of enemy area between them, Jiangxia (Liubiao) seperates them. (even if Wu started at Changsha it would be the same issue) as Jiangling (liubiao) would be inbetween them .
I could still do this though it would just add to the difficulty of SunJian surviving which would be the point anyway.

My question here is, how did Sunjians campaign end up all the wya at LiuBiaos main town of XiangYang? wouldnt he have campaigned through and taken Jiangling and Jiangxia first? or did he? whats the story here :p

Also I could make WU a vassal of Yuan Shu, but that would maybe end up making Wu rise to its own super power when the A.I plays as them,and that would be disappointing.
(I plan to do this with liu bei and Liu Zhang though)
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:53 pm

There are only thirteen zhous (including Jiao), so go with cities/commanderies/regions, not zhous. Except for Bing, Liang, and Jiao, I recommend dividing each zhou into 3-5.
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Fornadan » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:55 pm

Sun Jian attacked Liu Biao from the north, from Yuan Shu's base, which iirc then was Wan in Nanyang
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Re: Sun Clan starting position

Unread postby Jia Shengde » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:58 pm

Sun Jian first fought Huang Zu 'between Fan and Deng' (SGZ) he then defeated him and pursued him till Xiangyang. So you could put him between Fan and Deng just before their first encounter. Would leave the player with the possibility of afterwards defeating Liu Biao in his/her own way.

And is it possible to name the castle/town the same as the province? That might be the least confusing, I rarely notice the castle names in Shogun 2 anyway, since they aren't in very clear view.
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