Help with Economic conditions at the time

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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Havie » Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:32 am

Great,
I have solved part of the map issue i was having and am moving forward to roads and trade routes.

Curious though,

In Shogun there is a religious system that controls the happiness and rioting of provinces based on their beliefs being aligned to the controlling factions beliefs. I wish to alter this to affect the beliefs at the time of this period.

What would you suggest spiting this into?

As my actual knowledge of who believed what is very limited, I understand Liu bei was all about the Han and I would label him a "han loyalist" , then others like Yuan Shu declared themselves emperor etc. i would probably find a name for this.. "anti- han" ? idk
Another mod uses terms like "Factionism (LuBu/Mateng?) "Revival (Han/LiuBei)" "Isolationism (Sun clan)" "Dynastic Change (CaoCao/Yuanshao?) " "foreign culture (nanman tribes)" "Daoism (Wudoumi Sect) " Daoist revoltion (the Heishan, yellow turbans?)"

Do you think these adequately represent this era or how else would you spin it?

Im unsure how i feel about this approach, for example if CaoCao took over Yuan Shaos lands, the people would not be as unhappy since they have the same belief, I guess this would make sense. and Ultimately Shu Wu and Wei would have different beliefs so in the long run it would play out properly in terms of pitting the 3 sides against one another. But what I dont like is Yuan shu is considered dynastic change but he played out much differently compared to caocao and yuan shao , almost feel like he would under some kind of tyrant title like if dong zhou was included.
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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:02 am

The closest I can think of is Yellow Turbans cult, Zhang Lu's and Wei's big Confucianism vs Neo Daoisim which damaged the Cao family's authority and proved fatal to Cao Shuang's regime. Wu had north vs south gentry ending in the massacre of the northern families and Shu had the awkwardness of Liu Bei and co being seen as outsiders. This was a certainly a time of great philosophical change, Liu Biao's new age scholars, Zhang Lu's rice sect thriving, Buddhism and neo-daosim rising but as great impacts on the regime? Not so sure.

In terms of Han loyalty, everybody would begin arguing the toss. Is Liu Bei a Han loyalist or not has been a long long argument. Was Cao Cao, in the end, loyal to the Han? Also long argument. If Liu Bei was loyal to the Han, how much of his officer core were Han loyal? In truth, probably very very few. Most of Yi gentry and lands did not care for the Han and for long term followers, how much was more to do with Liu Bei? The only 100% Han loyal lord was Liu Yu (he literally refused the throne) and he was killed early and the amount of officers that would be proven Han loyalists was fairly small.

Regimes were formed then held together by sheer force of personality, miliatry success, not angering the gentry and good governance. I'm not there is a great belief system to use for this.
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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:06 am

The way I see it...

Pro-Han (almost every Liu, plus a few others such as Huangfu Song)
Neutral (most forces)
Anti-Han (Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shu, maybe a couple others)
Taoists (Yellow Turbans, Zhang Jiao)
Bandits (Zhang Yan, Yan Baihu, etc.)
Tribal (non-Han, Ma Teng/Han Sui)
Buddhism (Ze Rong)

It's true, Ze Rong didn't really run a force (he briefly ruled Yuzhang while Liu Yao's force was disintegrating), so you may wish to make Buddhist a trait instead, limited to him.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Havie » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:57 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:The closest I can think of is Yellow Turbans cult, Zhang Lu's and Wei's big Confucianism vs Neo Daoisim which damaged the Cao family's authority and proved fatal to Cao Shuang's regime. Wu had north vs south gentry ending in the massacre of the northern families and Shu had the awkwardness of Liu Bei and co being seen as outsiders. This was a certainly a time of great philosophical change, Liu Biao's new age scholars, Zhang Lu's rice sect thriving, Buddhism and neo-daosim rising but as great impacts on the regime? Not so sure.

In terms of Han loyalty, everybody would begin arguing the toss. Is Liu Bei a Han loyalist or not has been a long long argument. Was Cao Cao, in the end, loyal to the Han? Also long argument. If Liu Bei was loyal to the Han, how much of his officer core were Han loyal? In truth, probably very very few. Most of Yi gentry and lands did not care for the Han and for long term followers, how much was more to do with Liu Bei? The only 100% Han loyal lord was Liu Yu (he literally refused the throne) and he was killed early and the amount of officers that would be proven Han loyalists was fairly small.

Regimes were formed then held together by sheer force of personality, miliatry success, not angering the gentry and good governance. I'm not there is a great belief system to use for this.

Well although insightful, doesnt really help me in terms of how to change the Shogun2 belief system to fit this mod.. >.< haha



DragonAtma wrote:The way I see it...

Pro-Han (almost every Liu, plus a few others such as Huangfu Song)
Neutral (most forces)
Anti-Han (Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shu, maybe a couple others)
Taoists (Yellow Turbans, Zhang Jiao)
Bandits (Zhang Yan, Yan Baihu, etc.)
Tribal (non-Han, Ma Teng/Han Sui)
Buddhism (Ze Rong)

It's true, Ze Rong didn't really run a force (he briefly ruled Yuzhang while Liu Yao's force was disintegrating), so you may wish to make Buddhist a trait instead, limited to him.


This is interesting, I like the bandits addition and the reword of taoists, Anti-Han is nice. But what I do not like is that Wei, Wu, Lu Bu forces, Yuan shao , and mainly everyone else who will be playable will ultimately end up having an easy time taking over most provinces, if the bulk of the map is made up of "neutral" it almost nullifies the belief system entirely..
Need something to vary the beliefs between the major forces. Surely there is some different belief system the Sun Clan , compared to CaoCao, and so on.
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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:44 pm

Except when you start, the bulk is not made up of neutrals; it only seems that way because three neutrals did really well (Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, and Sun Quan). With these divisions, you should have more variety (and more interaction of different groups) than the vanilla version.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:01 pm

Zhuge Liang believe in legalism, Sun Ce was a traditional Confucius scholar and Wei were Neo-Daoists. I would say all three of them are fairly different ideologies.
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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:55 am

Well although insightful, doesnt really help me in terms of how to change the Shogun2 belief system to fit this mod.. >.< haha


I know, I'm simply warning there isn't an easy answer.

Sun Ce was a traditional Confucius scholar


Not sure rest of Sun's were though

and Wei were Neo-Daoists


I'm not sure they actually were but I get what you mean, Wei got associated with it over time (even though likes of Rui acted against them more then Sima's did) so Shuang got overthrown by the Confucians.
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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:58 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
Sun Ce was a traditional Confucius scholar


Not sure rest of Sun's were though

and Wei were Neo-Daoists


I'm not sure they actually were but I get what you mean, Wei got associated with it over time (even though likes of Rui acted against them more then Sima's did) so Shuang got overthrown by the Confucians.


All true! I was trying to devise a simplified system that could be used for a game rather than the rigidly historical truth! :lol:
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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:39 am

Yeah, that is fair.

I'm wondering with Wu lands, something about being southern? I know not an issue in the early days but there was the massacre after Zhuge Ke's fall of the northern families and an identity did seem to grow.

Yi did have a localized attitude and weren't too fussed about rest of China if that helps?
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Re: Help with Economic conditions at the time

Unread postby Havie » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:37 am

Hey Jolt,

Any chance youve got some time to help me place locations for the other resources?

Love your help as I am on this portion of the project now
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