Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:41 am

To be fair, luck is the reason he survived Cao Cao's attacks.

The first time? Cao Cao conquered and sacked Tao Qian's capital, ran out of food, and sacked three counties on the way back.
The second time? Cao Cao plundered two of Xu's five commanderies, only being forced to turn back due to Zhang Miao and Lu Bu's rebellion.

Nothing I've seen suggests Tao Qian is as good as Liu Bei in leading an army or a province, so if he lived a few more years I imagine he would be fully conquered and executed.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby capnnerefir » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:36 pm

Nearly got that document finished up. It's mostly collected ZZTJ references, with Tao Qian's HHS, some relevant SGZ mentions (Wang Lang, Chen Deng, etc.), and Rafe's biographical dictionary entry. The SGZs are on my other computer, but I can snag them after work.
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby waywardauthor » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:47 pm

capnnerefir wrote:Nearly got that document finished up. It's mostly collected ZZTJ references, with Tao Qian's HHS, some relevant SGZ mentions (Wang Lang, Chen Deng, etc.), and Rafe's biographical dictionary entry. The SGZs are on my other computer, but I can snag them after work.

That's fantastic! Thank you,

What I'm thinking of is writing something akin to Andrew Chittick's "The Life and Legacy of Liu Biao: Governor, Warlord, and Imperial Pretender in Late Han China" for Tao Qian. The best I can, anyways.
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:05 pm

waywardauthor wrote:Andrew Chittick's "The Life and Legacy of Liu Biao: Governor, Warlord, and Imperial Pretender in Late Han China"


Hang on, what? I don't believe I've heard of this?
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby waywardauthor » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:19 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
waywardauthor wrote:Andrew Chittick's "The Life and Legacy of Liu Biao: Governor, Warlord, and Imperial Pretender in Late Han China"


Hang on, what? I don't believe I've heard of this?

Its in the source list I made either a while back. It was published in the "Journal of Asian History - Vol. 37, No. 2 (2003), pp. 155-186"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41933339?s ... b_contents
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby capnnerefir » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:59 am

This should be everything I have on Tao Qian; just the text, not any opinions or commentary:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pX_ ... sp=sharing
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:43 am

waywardauthor wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:
waywardauthor wrote:Andrew Chittick's "The Life and Legacy of Liu Biao: Governor, Warlord, and Imperial Pretender in Late Han China"


Hang on, what? I don't believe I've heard of this?

Its in the source list I made either a while back. It was published in the "Journal of Asian History - Vol. 37, No. 2 (2003), pp. 155-186"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41933339?s ... b_contents


Is it worth registering to site (says book would be free but for how long, any other 3k books there?) and linking to kongming encyclopaedia?
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby waywardauthor » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:06 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
waywardauthor wrote:Its in the source list I made either a while back. It was published in the "Journal of Asian History - Vol. 37, No. 2 (2003), pp. 155-186"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41933339?s ... b_contents


Is it worth registering to site (says book would be free but for how long, any other 3k books there?) and linking to kongming encyclopaedia?

JSTOR is a Political Science Journal aggregate that is sold to universities. It has some information on the Three Kingdoms, but it is not especially history focused, let alone Chinese history. I have a few dozen downloaded, which was everything they had when I was looking, so if you want I can email a couple to you so you can see if you want it.

Howard L Goodman wrote a History of Court Lyrics in the Wei-Jin Court that is 50 pages.
He teamed up with someone else to write 20 pages on the Di-Flute and match-pitching in 3rd century China
Rafe de Crespigny and MIranda Brown wrote 35 pages on Adoption in the Han Dynasty
There's 20 pages on Red Cliff art
Joe Cutter wrote 30 pages on Cao Zhi's symposium poetry, 10 more on his three good men poem
Goodman wrote 30 pages on Daoism and the Founding of the Wei Dynasty
There's 50 pages on the Han's understanding of Central Asia
Goodman wrote 75 pages on Polymaths from 100 AD to 300 AD
Michael Loewe wrote 10 pages on China's relationship to Central Asia from 260-290 AD
Joe Cutter writes 8 pages on the death of Cao Zhang
There's 15 pages on Du Fu's commentary of Zhuge Liang
There's about the same on "Ho Ch'ü-fei and Chu Hsi on Chu-ko Liang as a "Scholar-General" written by the same guy (Hoyt Tillman)
There's almost 20 pages on Zhuge Liang legends
There's 15 pages devoted to four poems made by Liu Zhen towards Cao Pi
Killigrew wrote 15 pages on, I quote, "THE ROLE OF THE MOU-SHI IN THE SANGUO ZHI"
Chittick wrote over 20 pages on Naval Warfare in early medieval China (Red Cliff references are included)
Rafe wrote 40 pages on "Politics and Philosophy under the Government of Emperor Huan 159-168 A.D."
There's almost 40 pages on Ying Qu, a Jian'an calligrapher who had ties with the Xiahou family, and his poetic legacy
Goodman and someone else spent over 30 pages on "rethinking Kinsmanship" from the Han to the Six Dynasties.
Farmer wrote 40 pages on Qiao Zhou called "Rotten Pedant" (which should be free in the other thread)
Goodman wrote another 30 pages on "party music"
There's almost 25 pages devoted to Guan Yu's sexuality
There's a 15 page book review of The Talent of Shu
There's over 15 pages by Goodman on a calligrapher named "Chung Yu" who died in the early Wei court.
The campaigns of Cao Cao, only 8 pages, is in the public domain and done by a military specialist
Cutter wrote 6 pages on Zhen Ji's death
There's 35 pages on Zhang Fei legends
There's 40 pages on Korean expansion using the Hou Han Shou as a source
Cutter wrote almost 35 pages on Cao Zhi's "Incident at the Gate" and the succession to Cao Cao in general
15 pages on Lelang Commandery during the Han
35 pages on Romance of the Three Kingdoms showcasing the Mencian Worldview of Political Sovereignty
20 pages on how the SGZ became the SGYY
Goodman writes 25 pages on Cao Pi's poem after his father's death
Farmer wrote 10 pages on the Three Chaste ones of Ba, or a story of Liu Yan in Yizhou
There's almost 40 pages on Wang Bi, a Wei scholar
Cutter wrote on how generals became kings, with about 8 pages devoted to Cao Cao and Cao Pi
Farmer writes 15 pages on the name of "Shu"
There's over 10 pages on the use of women as bait in SGYY
There over 10 pages on Mi Heng in the "Musical Career of Xu Wei" an almost modern figure
There's 60 pages on Zhong Hui's intellectual career
10 pages on Zhuge Liang through the eyes of contemporaries
10 pages on Zhuge Liang through the eyes of Chen Shou
The Liu Biao article is 30 pages long

capnnerefir wrote:This should be everything I have on Tao Qian; just the text, not any opinions or commentary:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pX_ ... sp=sharing

This is fantastic! Thank you Capn!
Alone I lean under the wispy shade of an aged tree,
Scornfully I raise to parted lips a cup of warm wine,
Longingly I cast an empty vessel aside those exposed roots,
And leave behind forgotten memories and forsaken dreams.
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:52 am

waywardauthor wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:
waywardauthor wrote:Andrew Chittick's "The Life and Legacy of Liu Biao: Governor, Warlord, and Imperial Pretender in Late Han China"


Hang on, what? I don't believe I've heard of this?

Its in the source list I made either a while back. It was published in the "Journal of Asian History - Vol. 37, No. 2 (2003), pp. 155-186"

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41933339?s ... b_contents


Ah, I really do need to go through that list at some point. I really wish I'd utilised jstor as a student.

capnnerefir wrote:This should be everything I have on Tao Qian; just the text, not any opinions or commentary:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pX_ ... sp=sharing


This is great! Looking forward to seeing what you produce wayward!

As I read through it all I was left with a sense that although Tao Qian may not have endorsed the killing of Cao Song he rather bought it on himself by the people he promoted. It's like walking down the street with a rabid dog and then acting innocent when it bites someone. What else did he expect to happen? It also makes the fact that he wanted to hand the province over to Liu Bei a lot less impressive when you consider that he was a fairly woeful judge of character!
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Re: Information on Tao Qian and later Han Xu Province

Unread postby Shao Shanshu » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:25 am

Hello, gentlemen.

I've got a question about governor Tao in the days of Dong Zhuo. Various sources tell different stories. I know he sent troops to aid Zhu Jun agains the prime minister, yet some speak about his "general alliance with Dong Zhuo", but I can not find anything to support that idea.

Thanks.
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