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Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:48 pm
by Zyzyfer
Honestly, it sounds like your supervisor wants to see the case made for using SGZ in your thesis to me. Going to go out on a limb and posit that perhaps the way your thesis is written assumes the veracity of SGZ. I mean, if Leban and de Crespigny had to make their cases, after all...

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:28 am
by Sun Fin
Yeah I think Zyzfer is right. I've read a few 3K Thesis' and all of them have opened with a scorce analysis defending the SGZ's reliability. I'd have sworn That Rafe's SGZ biography of Sun Jian that he translated for his thesis used to be online and that contained a defense of Chen Shou as well.

That is the other option, Rafe has always responded positively to emails that people have sent him, he may be able to point you in the direction of some good sources to make your case?

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:36 am
by suwanpeng
Sun Fin wrote:Yeah I think Zyzfer is right. I've read a few 3K Thesis' and all of them have opened with a scorce analysis defending the SGZ's reliability. I'd have sworn That Rafe's SGZ biography of Sun Jian that he translated for his thesis used to be online and that contained a defense of Chen Shou as well.

That is the other option, Rafe has always responded positively to emails that people have sent him, he may be able to point you in the direction of some good sources to make your case?


I just sent him an e-mail, feels like I'm mailing a living legend gotta say!

Anyhow, I need to be really, really careful with defending SGZ's reliability. My country's policy for MA thesis (and the policy of my supervisor) strongly discourages individual opinions and conclusions, instead leaning towards other people's established research, while leaving independent research and discovery for PhD and later. Weird, I know; I originally wanted to research the connection between SGZ and SGYY, pinpointing the distortions in SGYY and how it influenced the modern perception of the Three Kingdoms era, however that was deemed too ambitious and not fitting MA thesis guidlines.

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:44 am
by Sun Fin
I suspect that is a European policy as many of my contemplates have complained of the same things.

I've not yet found an excuse to email Rafe but I would imagine I'd have a similar reaction. :lol:

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:51 am
by Fornadan
It may simply be that your supervisor doesn't want you to use the SGZ directly but through a filter of modern academics

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:41 pm
by DragonAtma
Fornadan wrote:It may simply be that your supervisor doesn't want you to use the SGZ directly but through a filter of modern academics


Or it may be that his supervisor is a fool; no position is immune to incompetence, whether as minor as garbage collector or as major as US president.

The two big sources are SGZ and ZZTJ; all (or virtually all) worthwhile modern sources can be traced back to one or both of them (and I would be very surprised if ZZTJ doesn't use SGZ as a major source).

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:38 am
by suwanpeng
Guys, I'm almost shaking! Rafe de Crespigny not only responded to my e-mail, deemed my opinion correct, provided me with sources (including the full bibliography, pages and such) and also included a full chapter of "Imperial Warlord: a biography of Cao Cao 155-220 AD" in which he goes in depth about the subject of SGZ's value as a historical source! I can't believe how lucky I am and how great of a scholar he is!

This is a major breakthrough for me. I feel that Mr. de Crespigny provided me with more than enough material to defend my cause. I'd like to thank Sun Fin for his suggestion about sending the e-mail!

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:47 am
by Sun Fin
That's amazing news! Everyone who has emailed Rafe has said how much of a legend he is! :D

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:33 pm
by DragonAtma
Congrats!

Re: Sanguozhi as a historical source

Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:30 pm
by Sun Fin
Do you mind sharing the title of your thesis now that it looks like the topic of the reliability of the SGZ has been resolved?