Was Cheng Yu a chef for Wei?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Was Cheng Yu a chef for Wei?

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:47 pm

Mitsunari wrote:
DragonAtma wrote:It's probably best to politely decline any food prepared by Cheng Yu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Yu#Appraisal

And yes, SGZ seems to agree (at least according to google translate).


And Cheng himself would stroke his beard, cackling maniacally, whilst the soldiers picked pieces of roasted townsfolk from their teeth. Nasty, nasty old man...


Yeah I can't help but notice the way that last wikipedia article sentence is written. It's in the SGZ, though the source there in the wiki appears to be folklore?

Either way, I thought it was that during Cao Cao's northern campaigns they were running out of food and Cheng Yu suggested that they make jerky from the casualties. (Which, it has apparently been so long since I've been here, is what my side panel says my location is.)

Or was that some other circumstance?
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: General who Stabs Evil People

Re: Was Cheng Yu a chef for Wei?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:56 pm

The line that wikipedia quotes was definitely in Cheng Yu's SGZ. And while I don't speak chinese (and google translate isn't so good at it), it *does* seem to mention something similar.

If someone's up for translating SGZ bios, maybe Cheng Yu should be next? Or at least the line from the SGZ (which Wikipedia quotes verbatim):
世语曰:初,太祖乏食,昱略其本县,供三日粮,颇杂以人脯,由是失朝望,故位不至公。
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

In memory of my beloved cats, Anastasia (9/30/06-9/18/17, illness) and Josephine (1/19/06-9/23/17, cancer).
DragonAtma
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1032
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:19 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Was Cheng Yu a chef for Wei?

Unread postby jiuyangda » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:49 pm

DragonAtma wrote:The line that wikipedia quotes was definitely in Cheng Yu's SGZ. And while I don't speak chinese (and google translate isn't so good at it), it *does* seem to mention something similar.

If someone's up for translating SGZ bios, maybe Cheng Yu should be next? Or at least the line from the SGZ (which Wikipedia quotes verbatim):
世语曰:初,太祖乏食,昱略其本县,供三日粮,颇杂以人脯,由是失朝望,故位不至公。


This is a little late, but there's a draft translation here.

Shìyǔ states: Previously, Tàizǔ’s provisions were exhausted. Yù plundered his home county, providing three days of provisions, mixed with pieces of human flesh. Because of this he lost the Court’s favor, and therefore his rank did not reach the Excellencies.


Personally I don't think the claim is reliable. The base biography claims he did not reach the Excellencies because he died before he could be appointed.
jiuyangda
Tyro
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Was Cheng Yu a chef for Wei?

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:34 pm

jiuyangda wrote:
This is a little late, but there's a draft translation here.


Thanks, jiuyangda! Your translations are fabulous.

jiuyangda wrote:
Shìyǔ states: Previously, Tàizǔ’s provisions were exhausted. Yù plundered his home county, providing three days of provisions, mixed with pieces of human flesh. Because of this he lost the Court’s favor, and therefore his rank did not reach the Excellencies.


Personally I don't think the claim is reliable. The base biography claims he did not reach the Excellencies because he died before he could be appointed.


True - people do tend to take the annotations to the San Guo Zhi at face-value, when some of the sources for the annotations are questionable (hence why in some cases Chen Shou didn't use them). It's possible he made the suggestion; as said before, cannibalism in times of war and mass starvation isn't exactly unheard of, but it could just as easily be propaganda or slander. I don't know much about the Shiyu. (This is also not to say that the San Guo Zhi itself is absolute truth, either, of course, but it's still the best we've got.)

On a related note, and I don't know why I'm doing this, but here's a list of explicit mentions of cannibalism in the translations of the ZZTJ by de Crespigny!

Xingping 1: 194 AD
[195]
S From the fourth month to this [seventh] month there was no rain.33 A
hu of grain cost half a million cash,34 and there was cannibalism in
Chang'an.


Xingping 2: 195 AD
D At the time of Dong Zhuo's death, the population of the capital district was
still numbered by hundreds of thousands of households. But Li Jue and his
armies plundered far and wide, then there was famine, and within two years
the people had been reduced to cannibalism. All but a very few left the
territory or died of starvation.


Jian'an 1: 196 AD
[Ja1: 196]
F . . . Liu Bei came back when he heard the news, but by the time he reached
Xiapi his army had disintegrated. Gathering the remnants of his forces, he
went east against Guangling. He fought with Yuan Shu, suffered further
defeat, and went to camp at Haixi. Starving and desperate, his men had
turned to cannibalism. His Attendant Official Mi Zhu of Donghai gave aid to
the army from his own family property.


Jian'an 1: 196 AD
[Ja1: 196]
BB . . . Yuan Shao was north of the Yellow River, and the men of his army ate
mulberries, Yuan Shu was by the Yangzi and the Huai, and his soldiers took
clams and mussels. Many turned to cannibalism, and all the country was
lonely and desolate.


A lot fewer than I would have expected, honestly, and none from 200 onwards. I could look at other sources for it but don't really have a good reason to compile this list.
Last edited by CaTigeReptile on Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
CaTigeReptile
Langzhong
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:58 pm
Location: General who Stabs Evil People

Re: Was Cheng Yu a chef for Wei?

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:35 am

It is nice to finally read more about one of Cao Cao's top advisors. I guess he too was renowned for a good beard. It seems the vast important of his career was in the same vein as Xun Yu. He was Xun Yu's partner in defending against Lu Bu. I did like the criticism regarding Jin Yun, it gives you a good insight into morality in that era, even heaping a little praise onto Liu Bei for letting Xu Shu go.
As you know security
is mortal's greatest enemy.

SimRTK is back up in a testing phase! Go ahead and give it a look over on the Simzhou forum branch.

http://simrtk.net/index.php
User avatar
Xu Yuan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:13 pm

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved