Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:28 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Liu Bei may also have been, like Yi Ling, trying to build bonds with new officers and blood them. Some will have had expirence in Jing and so more about testing them+winning them over, others would need the expirence. If he fought Zhang Lu, that helps but if he doesn't, well he is taking on Liu Zhang.


So I can understand this but even so I think I'd want one person I knew had served me a while and had proved their loyalty. Although I guess Liu Feng's fate as adopted son was rather bound up to that of Bei's so if nothing else he was going to remain loyal.
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:35 pm

On a late note, I should add that northern Yi's natural defenses were:
* Mountains on the eastern edge.
* Mountains on the northern edge.
* Mountains on the western edge.
* Mountains as the southern, sparsely-inhabited half of Yi.

The whole central chunk of northern Yi was plains with minor hills -- and since Liu Bei had been invited in to help fight Zhang Lu, he was past those mountains and onto the plains, which had few natural defenses. Yews, technically Liu Bei had been sent into Yi's northern mountains to fight Zhang Lu, but there were only two main passes between him and the capital -- Jiameng Pass (where Liu Bei was given permission to set up his "anti-Zhang Lu" army) and Baishui pass (where Yang Huai and Gao Pei were executed). From then onwards, the path was easy terrain.
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:16 pm

Liu Bei know Zhuge Liang was not talented in military so he won't take him to battle. As the other old officer, well.. if you want to leave your home then you'll stationed your most trusted officer on your home right?
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby Qin Feng » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:13 pm

He had such a lack of talent that he kept Wei, a much stronger state, on the defensive while sustaining the losses and defeating several important officers like Zhang He.
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:22 pm

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Liu Bei know Zhuge Liang was not talented in military so he won't take him to battle. As the other old officer, well.. if you want to leave your home then you'll stationed your most trusted officer on your home right?


You keep saying Zhuge Liang was not talented militarily. Every time you do I am just going to tell you to read this article until you finally do. I used to be the same way years ago, and it was a harsh reaction against the fictional Zhuge Liang. Something that the real man had no involvement in. The actual one had military talent. Was he the greatest? Absolutely not, but to say he was not talented militarily is quite frankly ignorant. So I implore you if you want to know more about this era, please for the love of Cao Cao, read this article.

Zhuge Liang and the Northern Campaign of 228–234 by John Killigrew
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby Pirao » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:29 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:
Ouyang_Feng wrote:Liu Bei know Zhuge Liang was not talented in military so he won't take him to battle. As the other old officer, well.. if you want to leave your home then you'll stationed your most trusted officer on your home right?


You keep saying Zhuge Liang was not talented militarily. Every time you do I am just going to tell you to read this article until you finally do. I used to be the same way years ago, and it was a harsh reaction against the fictional Zhuge Liang. Something that the real man had no involvement in. The actual one had military talent. Was he the greatest? Absolutely not, but to say he was not talented militarily is quite frankly ignorant. So I implore you if you want to know more about this era, please for the love of Cao Cao, read this article.

Zhuge Liang and the Northern Campaign of 228–234 by John Killigrew


Where is it available? Can't find it.
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby greencactaur » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:53 pm

I always was under the assumption the main reason Liu Bei left behind his veterans in Jing was due to their reputation to dissuade Sun Quan and Cao Cao from attacking. More mainly however to prevent any potential rebellions. If Liu had brought his main general to attack yi, and left behind the new blood its very possible one of the new bloods would've rebelled and try to take Jing while liu was in Yi. I feel like also the theory of trying to form bonds with the new officers also plays a big role in why he brought his new generals along as oppose to his most valuable/loyal ones.
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:16 pm

Pirao wrote:
DaoLunOfShiji wrote:
Ouyang_Feng wrote:Liu Bei know Zhuge Liang was not talented in military so he won't take him to battle. As the other old officer, well.. if you want to leave your home then you'll stationed your most trusted officer on your home right?


You keep saying Zhuge Liang was not talented militarily. Every time you do I am just going to tell you to read this article until you finally do. I used to be the same way years ago, and it was a harsh reaction against the fictional Zhuge Liang. Something that the real man had no involvement in. The actual one had military talent. Was he the greatest? Absolutely not, but to say he was not talented militarily is quite frankly ignorant. So I implore you if you want to know more about this era, please for the love of Cao Cao, read this article.

Zhuge Liang and the Northern Campaign of 228–234 by John Killigrew


Where is it available? Can't find it.


It's on JSTOR.
"To triumph without fighting is the greatest enterprise of the sovereign. Better to capture a state intact than to wreck it; better to capture an army complete than to destroy it. These are the principles of warfare."
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby Pirao » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:14 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:It's on JSTOR.


https://www.jstor.org/stable/24578677?S ... trol&seq=1

I can only find this review, not the article itself :cry:
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Re: Liu Bei's invasion of Yi

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:04 pm

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24298&start=20#p612693
Thankfully it was posted here too. I forgot.
"To triumph without fighting is the greatest enterprise of the sovereign. Better to capture a state intact than to wreck it; better to capture an army complete than to destroy it. These are the principles of warfare."
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