Help me to like Sun Ce

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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:23 pm

He is the Yin to Ce's Yang. They are the classic tragic heroes. Sun Ce the orphan of the competent but lowly Sun Jian whilst Zhou Yu wcame from a rich and noble family. Despite their differences they became close friends and Ce's family even moved in with the Zhou's whilst Jian was on a campaign (Rafe suggests this is because of Ce and Yu's friendship!). So Zhou Yu wasn't stuck up, he became firm friends with Sun Ce despite his lowly status and lack of noble heritage!

Zhou Yu had a good future ahead of him but gave it up to follow his childhood friend to war! It happened that both of them were talented commanders (Zhou Yu was certainly more a commander than an adviser!) and that this gamble paid off hugely. He married a beautiful girl became a highly respected commander and won the biggest battle of the era.

I simply don't get what there is not too like?
Last edited by Sun Fin on Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:45 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Didn't a poster long ago show that Sun Quan fought tigers while sealed up in a iron cage and with a spear? :P


Actually it was space tigers, in orbit around the sun, and Sun Quan was equipped with a mere toothpick.


Ah, I had forgotten about the Space Tigers, truly the manliness of men. :lol:
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:11 pm

Another matter I hadn't seen mentioned yet was his ongoing debt to the Yuan clan. Sure he may have betrayed Yuan Shu after he became Emperor, but even after all of that was said and done Sun Ce saves the remaining Yuan's (Lady Yuan, and Yuan Yao) from Liu Xun and gives Yuan Yao a (minor) position and Lady Yuan becomes one of Sun Quan's favorite concubines who had the chance to become Empress.

I find this to be a great measure of the man's morals and personality, considering it seemed his officer corp didn't really care much for Yuan Shu in the first place
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:20 am

Sun Fin wrote:He is the Ying to Ce's Yang.


It's "yin". :shock:

Normally wouldn't bother, but since you're referencing an expression with roots in Chinese philosophy and we're posting on a board about Chinese history... :lol:

They are the classic tragic heroes. Sun Ce the orphan of the competent but lowly Sun Jian whilst Zhou Yu wcame from a rich and noble family. Despite their differences they became close friends and Ce's family even moved in with the Zhou's whilst Jian was on a campaign (Rafe suggests this is because of Ce and Yu's friendship!). So Zhou Yu wasn't stuck up, he became firm friends with Sun Ce despite his lowly status and lack of noble heritage!

Zhou Yu had a good future ahead of him but gave it up to follow his childhood friend to war! It happened that both of them were talented commanders (Zhou Yu was certainly more a commander than an adviser!) and that this gamble paid off hugely. He married a beautiful girl became a highly respected commander and won the biggest battle of the era.

I simply don't get what there is not too like?


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he isn't objectively likable. He certainly has a host of noble traits.

I just personally find people with (sometimes glaring) imperfections and a bit of a tragic twist more intriguing. Zhou Yu is kind of vanilla.

Xu Yuan wrote:Another matter I hadn't seen mentioned yet was his ongoing debt to the Yuan clan. Sure he may have betrayed Yuan Shu after he became Emperor, but even after all of that was said and done Sun Ce saves the remaining Yuan's (Lady Yuan, and Yuan Yao) from Liu Xun and gives Yuan Yao a (minor) position and Lady Yuan becomes one of Sun Quan's favorite concubines who had the chance to become Empress.

I find this to be a great measure of the man's morals and personality, considering it seemed his officer corp didn't really care much for Yuan Shu in the first place


I concur with this. It's a pretty telling thing that he did, in my opinion.
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:34 am

It runs in the family; Liu Ji (son of Liu Yao) not only was given a post under Sun Quan, but was favored by him (to the point where he saved Yu Fan's life by convincing a drunk Sun Quan not to kill him).
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:54 am

Zyzyfer wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:He is the Ying to Ce's Yang.


It's "yin". :shock:



:shock: That's awkward... typo...

Hmm, I guess we don't get to see Zhou Yu's flaws other than the bad fortune of dying young but they must have been there!
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby Bassaga » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:45 pm

Hey folks! Sorry, I got distracted all week by an obsession with bass ukuleles, and forgot to come back here. You know how it is.

Anyway, I don't have anything against Zhou Yu, I just get depressed when I think about him. He was a nice guy, a brilliant strategist and a phenomenal commander who should have accomplished all sorts of great triumphs and changed the world. But in the end, it seems like all he did was get shut down by Zhuge Liang over and over and spit up blood all over China. A great life reduced to anger, internal bleeding, and an early death. Thus my sadness.

Of course, my knowledge is mostly from the novel/games/2010 series. I've got no historical background for any of this really, so if history will cheer the story up, let me know. I'll look into that Generals of the South thing, too. Really I intend to end up a fan of pretty much everybody, so if that means I stick with the novel's Zhuge Liang and history's Zhou Yu, that works. It shall be my Romance of the Three Kingdoms: Shameless Rose-colored Glasses Edition.

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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:15 pm

Bassaga wrote:Hey folks! Sorry, I got distracted all week by an obsession with bass ukuleles, and forgot to come back here. You know how it is.

Anyway, I don't have anything against Zhou Yu, I just get depressed when I think about him. He was a nice guy, a brilliant strategist and a phenomenal commander who should have accomplished all sorts of great triumphs and changed the world. But in the end, it seems like all he did was get shut down by Zhuge Liang over and over and spit up blood all over China. A great life reduced to anger, internal bleeding, and an early death. Thus my sadness.

Of course, my knowledge is mostly from the novel/games/2010 series. I've got no historical background for any of this really, so if history will cheer the story up, let me know. I'll look into that Generals of the South thing, too. Really I intend to end up a fan of pretty much everybody, so if that means I stick with the novel's Zhuge Liang and history's Zhou Yu, that works. It shall be my Romance of the Three Kingdoms: Shameless Rose-colored Glasses Edition.

...and what's this about space sharks?


Zhou Yu was a brilliant commander and had a good eye for talent. Historically he didn't have a feud with Zhuge Liang and came up with a lot of good ideas. He had a lo of very ambitious ideas for the future of Wu and it would have been very interesting if he could have pulled them off. The man died too young, however like Sun Ce he accomplished a lot in a short amount of time.
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:24 am

Bassaga wrote:...so if history will cheer the story up, let me know.


History paints Wu overall in a far better light. They were treated as the unnecessary villains in the novel and that stigma has really stuck with them.

...and what's this about space sharks?


THEY EXIST. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Help me to like Sun Ce

Unread postby lcklasman » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:56 am

Zyzyfer wrote:
Bassaga wrote:...so if history will cheer the story up, let me know.


History paints Wu overall in a far better light. They were treated as the unnecessary villains in the novel and that stigma has really stuck with them.

...and what's this about space sharks?


THEY EXIST. :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Well I feel Wu kind of has to be seen as the secondary villain in order for Shu to be seen as the heroes. If Wu is seen as being another good force, Shu like in history is not really making a morally right choice in not returning Jing, and then Yi Ling. Didn't say it wasn't tactically the right move, but it definetely is something a protagonist would not do.
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