Hao Zhao at He Fei?

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Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:45 am

I posted this in the "You Ask, We Answer" thread to no avail. Hoping it'll get more notice here.

Apparently in the Shanxi Tongzhi (I can't read Chinese, so I can't verify it myself), when talking about the battle of Xiaoyao Ford (214-215; this is the famous battle at He Fei with Zhang Liao, Yue Jin, and Li Dian) it mentions Hao Zhao. During the initial charge by Zhang Liao and Li Dian, after routing Xu Sheng and Song Qian, they pressed on to Sun Quan's personal guard. Chen Wu, the leader of Sun's bodyguards stepped forward to fight -

Wikipedia, Source: Shanxi Tongzhi wrote:Soon, Zhang Liao had penetrated Sun Quan's camp. After personally slaying several enemy soldiers and two officers, he cried out, "Zhang Liao is here!" Chen Wu, the commander of Sun Quan's bodyguards, answered Zhang Liao's challenge and went forth to fight him. However, Chen Wu's unit was no match for Zhang Liao's and he was killed by Hao Zhao in the clash.


I'll start off by saying this is Wikipedia, so grain of salt is always needed; in my experience they tend to be mostly historically accurate on Three Kingdoms articles, though. The link to Hao Zhao (the one whom successfully defended Chancang fort during the second northern campaign) only says that

Wikipedia, Source: Annals of Shanxi wrote:One record of history also suggests in 214-215 Hao Zhao had participated in the successful defense of Xiaoyao Ford as a subordinate commander under Zhang Liao and in one particular operation he rode straight towards Sun Quan's main force with only 800 soldiers and successfully killed Chen Wu in the melee.


Following the external link brings me to this site: http://ctext.org/library.pl?if=gb&res=2093

This looks like a series of links going to each particular Annal, but I can't be sure (again, no Chinese). I was wondering if anyone else had further information on this particulars of this.

I also don't know about the Shanxi Tongzhi, and have no idea if it's a reliable source or not. Also, are the Annals of Shanxi the same thing, or are they separate?

Any information anyone has is super-appreciated. Hao Zhao is one of my favorites, after all. :D Write a book if you're able. I'll lap it all up. Thanks in advance!
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Zafar Khan » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:16 am

eager to know too.. would love to see someone share the details too
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:18 pm

I don't have the answer but I would not Professor Rafe's encyclopaedia doesn't mention this in Chen Wu's entry (other then he dies at Hefei) or Hao Zhao's
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:28 am

What about the Shanxi Tongzhi then? Does anyone have more information on that?
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:34 pm

I always thought he was, but I didn't realize the other works never mentioned it.
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:27 am

Hm. This a bit of a mystery. I'll keep digging over the next few weeks and see if I can turn up anything.

Not reading Chinese is gonna be in issue, me thinks...let's see how I do even with that handicap. :)

EDIT: I mean, what are the Shanxi Tongzhi Annals? No one seems to know. Was Chen Wu simply killed in a swirling melee, or was it someone we already know that killed him? Hao Zhao was said to have "earned a few deeds in battle as a captain, and was given the lowest rank of generalship because of them." But this is entirely un-sourced; not found in the SGZ or any other record I know. Is it conjecture?

He spent ten years as a general earned the fear and respect of tribes and foreigners in Hexi (Source: 《资治通鉴卷第六十九》:武威三种胡复叛。). Then out of nowhere Cao Zhen says "Zhuge Liang is gonna attack through Chencang, let's send Hao Zhao? Not one of several other generals who either -

1. Faced ZGL in the first northern campaign
2. Is familiar with the region
3. Has battle experience outside of tribes and foreigners

We have Zhang He, Cao Zhen, Wang Shuang, and others who are proven commanders. Suddenly no-name Hao Zhao comes out of nowhere and stuns both nations with a great victory?

I dunno. Maybe I'm reading into this too much. He was busy building fortifications - no need to use a great general for that task. Maybe it was mainly to be used a stalling tactic - make Shu waste some time and effort on this fort, they'll eventually beat it and move on, but by then we have an army ready who's fresh and high in spirits. When we beat ZGL this time or he retreats, we can take back our fort.

I dunno. I think it warrants a bit more digging. I'll let you all know if I find something.
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:51 am

IIRC both Cao Zhen and Hao Zhao spent most of 219-228 in the Yongzhou/Liangzhou area. It's entirely possible that Cao Zhen knew Hao Zhao well enough to recognize his talent.
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:41 am

DragonAtma wrote:IIRC both Cao Zhen and Hao Zhao spent most of 219-228 in the Yongzhou/Liangzhou area. It's entirely possible that Cao Zhen knew Hao Zhao well enough to recognize his talent.


That's pretty reasonable. Also, people knowledgeable about certain fields know who the true talent is within that field. So it's reasonable that a high-ranking general like Cao Zhen would know who the skilled lower-ranking guys are.

When promotion time comes around for lower-ranking officers (battalion commanders, captain, colonels, majors, and the like), it's important for those in charge to know who the promising candidates and the duds are. Being in the same area and the same job field makes it likely, at the least, that Cao know Hao's potential and nature.

Like I said, I might be looking too much into it. It's probably a case of an exaggerated claim regarding Hao Zhao being at He Fei.
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Zafar Khan » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:30 am

lets compare the chronology.

Battle at Hefei which mention Hao Zhao occured around 214-215

then his famous battle at Chencang in 228-229.

well its around 13 years.

i dont know if the war situation the promotions was very fast like that.
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Re: Hao Zhao at He Fei?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:52 pm

Hao Zhao was clearly a noted officer by the time he took part in the Su Ze camapign so not a surprise he was among Cao Zhen's officers either
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