Types of Leadership

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Types of Leadership

Unread postby Xiahou Ren » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:42 am

The novel made Cao Cao treacherous, Liu Bei humane, and Sun Quan... something in between, I guess. But to be honest, I think they was just doing whatever they think was best to gain victories. Sometimes they're kind, sometimes cruel, sometimes they made alliance, other times severed them. They're all cunning leaders, and each had their Chi Bi, Yi Ling, and He Fei.

But all-in-all, they're top class leader.
Let's made an assessment for leadership types, while we're at it.

Cunning and Wise : Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Sun Quan
Averagely Competent: Liu Biao, Cao Pi, Zhang Lu
Weak Minded: Liu Shan, Yuan Shao, Liu Zhang
Narrow Minded: Dong Zhuo, Lu Bu, Yuan Shu, Cao Rui, Gongsun Zan, and every other Sun after Sun Quan

Did I got it right?
Last edited by Xiahou Ren on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Shen Ai » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:49 am

Hmmm, I wouldn't say Cao Rui was narrow minded. His spending issues were stupid, but he seemed to be a very open minded fair sort of man at times. Like appointing women to office.
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:46 am

Shen Ai wrote:Hmmm, I wouldn't say Cao Rui was narrow minded. His spending issues were stupid, but he seemed to be a very open minded fair sort of man at times. Like appointing women to office.


Whoa, appointing women to office actually happened? I was under the impression that anything like that happening was pure fantasy. Could you elaborate on this a bit for me?

Don't forget the coolest category of all:

Ballsy-est Baller of Ballin-town: Cao Mao

Seriously, grabbing some weapons with your closest allies and personal guards, then marching off to face-off against the guy who's basically in control of the entire government takes boatloads of courage. Even though he eventually failed and was killed, he didn't lay down and let someone else destroy what Cao Cao worked to achieve (his sons becoming emperor and inheriting the royal line).
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:19 pm

More used them as clerks and offical positions within the palace

I do agree that the big warlords were doing what they felt was needed to win, and sometimes becuase they were cruel but on the groups listed. Define averagely competent? Zhang Lu was certainly not average and Liu Biao seizing Jing with just two men is impressive. Yuan Shao, till near the end, was not weak minded and narrow minded seems to be a very wide range definition but even with that, Lu Bu, Cao Rui, Sun Liang and Sun Xiu don't fit.

As for Cao Mao, would put him under "hasty, not as smart as he thinks he is, probably undermined the efforts of the wiser Dowager Guo"
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Shen Ai » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:44 pm

Well it was a bold step in any case.

Cao Rui was wiser than his father in military matters (that is, he let his generals and commanders do the work and didn't try to jump into things he didn't know). But he also seemed to be a less keen administrator.

You should add Gongsun Zan under narrow minded. That guy was an idiot.
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:37 pm

Shen Ai wrote:Well it was a bold step in any case.


It was.

Cao Rui is an odd figure. Radical in his private life, very conservative in public policy, he did take keen interest in state affairs usually but, you know, palaces, intelligent but a problem for Wei. Kind but could be a complete jerk

Shen Ai wrote:You should add Gongsun Zan under narrow minded. That guy was an idiot.


That's being kind
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:38 pm

Shen Ai wrote:Well it was a bold step in any case.

Cao Rui was wiser than his father in military matters (that is, he let his generals and commanders do the work and didn't try to jump into things he didn't know). But he also seemed to be a less keen administrator.

You should add Gongsun Zan under narrow minded. That guy was an idiot.


Gongsun Zan I believe falls into the same catagory as people like Jiang Wei, pretty good in military matters, but you really shouldn't give them overall authority. Gongsun Zan was very good at dealing with the northern tribes, but make him a leader of a territory and things fall apart.
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Shen Ai » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:29 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:It was.

Cao Rui is an odd figure. Radical in his private life, very conservative in public policy, he did take keen interest in state affairs usually but, you know, palaces, intelligent but a problem for Wei. Kind but could be a complete jerk

That's being kind


Yes he certainly is a strange one. I don't know if I could say he was better than Cao Pi, but he was certainly competent when he tried.

I'd say a major fault of his was continuing his father's practice of isolating the princes. With such a young heir he should have won allies in his family.

Yeah, Gongsun Zan was a terrible leader. And I wouldn't even call him that good of a general either, Yuan Shao bested him twice and he only lasted so long under siege because Yijing was a natural fortress.

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:Gongsun Zan I believe falls into the same catagory as people like Jiang Wei, pretty good in military matters, but you really shouldn't give them overall authority. Gongsun Zan was very good at dealing with the northern tribes, but make him a leader of a territory and things fall apart.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Gongsun Zan fortify himself in Yijing and hoard supplies and soldiers, leaving his people to die of famine or left at the mercy of invaders?
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Xiahou Ren » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:29 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Define averagely competent? Zhang Lu was certainly not average and Liu Biao seizing Jing with just two men is impressive. Yuan Shao, till near the end, was not weak minded and narrow minded seems to be a very wide range definition but even with that, Lu Bu, Cao Rui, Sun Liang and Sun Xiu don't fit.


Sorry, I should've been clearer about the definition.

"Averagely competent", in my mind, applies to all warlords that has done a really good job during their reign, except at one aspect. Military conquest. They were just lacking in that one particular area, which in the end cost them their territories (with the exception of Cao Pi, because he already had a lot of talents and military power). They actually did an amazing job in everything else. I really like Zhang Lu, he seems wise; but everytime I tried play using him, I always got crushed silly because they never built a proper military strength. Peaceful route just didn't work in that era.

"Weak Minded", well, warlords who seem to be indecisive and made this subordinates betray them in the end. Yuan Shao is kind of an exception because he wasn't really betrayed by his subordinates, he just made too many timid choices. Based on the interpretation that he stalled too long on offensive strategies and appointing rightful heir, I put him under weak-minded category.

"Narrow Minded", is, basically a fool who made a rather fatal mistake and failed to capitalize his position. I'm not sure where to put Cao Rui, because personally, I think he made more harm than good on his reign. Is it right?

Dong Zhou, you seem to have an affinity toward Lu Bu, as a warlord. I never think he was ever fit to lead, ever. He's one of the worst on commanding position, in fact. A good leader recognize futile effort, Lu Bu failed to do so. Multiple times. Pu Yang and Xiapi were total disasters. Failed to capitalize attacking chances on several occasions (much like Yuan Shao). Switching sides and making new enemies every 5 minutes. At least Liu Bei knew to run as far as possible after betrayal to save his neck. Lu Bu just stand there, thinking he'd be forgiven. Sorry, I can't rate Lu Bu being anything besides, hilariously terrible, as a warlord.
Last edited by Xiahou Ren on Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Types of Leadership

Unread postby Xiahou Ren » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:33 am

Shen Ai wrote:You should add Gongsun Zan under narrow minded. That guy was an idiot.

I did now. Can't believe I missed that one.
I guess I'll go research Han Xuan, Zhang Xiu, Tao Qian, and Zhao Fan.
I know so little about them.
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