Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:54 pm

Fledgling Dragon wrote:To be honest, this sounds more like an anti-Shu rant than anything else.


All the Shu figures listed are common enough names on "worst officers" or getting hammered in various topics.Shu also included Wei and Wu names as well

Some of your points (Ma Su, Jiang Wei) seem to be novel based whereas Xiahou Ren is talking history which may also explain the gap.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:59 pm

Ma Su had to have a reputation if Zhuge Liang sent him to guard Jie Ting. And Jiang Wei was in no way equal to Zhuge Liang.
Last edited by FoxWithWings on Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:48 am

Sure, Ma Su had reputation.

Jiang Wei wasn't equal to Zhuge Liang, whose connection with was relatively small, but neither was Jiang Wan and Fei Yi who were Zhuge Liang's direct successors.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby Shozuhn » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:50 am

Seems a little unfair to say "Jiang Wei wasn't equal to Zhuge Liang" as if that somehow makes Jiang Wei bad. I mean... isn't Zhuge Liang one of the most highly respected people from the era? To not be Zhuge Liang's equal is in no way an insult to Jiang Wei, I wouldn't think. You could be really, really good and still not be Zhuge Liang's equal. Few are.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:45 am

To an extent that is true. There are plenty of other, fairer, sticks to beat Jiang Wei with.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby FoxWithWings » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:50 pm

True, true, I didn't mean to portray Jiang Wei as bloody awful. He was a decent general, I guess. It's just that my overall impression of him isn't very good.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby Xiahou Ren » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:26 pm

Sorry I was out of town for a couple of days.
And just to clear things up, I actually like Shu. The major force I don't really fond of is Wu, because I think they play their game a bit to safe. Shu and Wei has done a lot of risk-taking move, some paid off, some didn't. I respect them for that. Guan Yu, on the other hand, I don't like.

Dong Zhou wrote:What are you referring to?

I once read somewhere Guan Yu's force were doubled after he crushed Pang De and Yu Jin. That's a good thing. He got it right. Then... you know mistakes after mistakes after mistakes. Honestly I don't even know where to start. Let me say that, he wasted all of those new resource as fast as he gained them. Might even be better if he didn't get so much recruits at all.

Btw, about Mi Fang and (Fu) Shi Ren... reprimanding his subordinates were fine, but then assigned them to guard his supplies while he went to make yet another enemy. What the hell?

Dong Zhou wrote:Because he didn't trust Wu further then he could throw them with arms tied down by an elephant. So (in some cases rightly) he viewed their offers with distrust and let his distrust be clear.

Wow. That is actually, looks a bit cool. It looks like an honorable thing to do. Stupid, but honorable.

Funny thing about Fan battle is, strategist from both Wu and Wei nailed Guan Yu's move perfectly. While Shu, on the other hand, his own friends... basically just let him to die. Where were everybody really?
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby Xiahou Ren » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:31 pm

FoxWithWings wrote:True, true, I didn't mean to portray Jiang Wei as bloody awful. He was a decent general, I guess. It's just that my overall impression of him isn't very good.

Eh, both Guan Yu and Jiang Wei are pure warrior in my book. Powerful, dumb, all brawn-no-brain warrior type with 70-ish leadership, 90-ish war, and 30-ish everything else. That alone didn't make them bad in my eyes, but rather what they had done.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:03 pm

FoxWithWings wrote:True, true, I didn't mean to portray Jiang Wei as bloody awful. He was a decent general, I guess. It's just that my overall impression of him isn't very good.


He was a bloody awful CiC

Xiahou Ren wrote:Sorry I was out of town for a couple of days.


Tsk, having a life outside this forum is high treason :P

Xiahou Ren wrote:I once read somewhere Guan Yu's force were doubled after he crushed Pang De and Yu Jin. That's a good thing. He got it right. Then... you know mistakes after mistakes after mistakes. Honestly I don't even know where to start. Let me say that, he wasted all of those new resource as fast as he gained them.


I'm not sure about doubled but yeah, he got bigger forces and seemingly more then his supply lines could take. I don't think he does much "wrong" in Fan after that other then be outclassed by xu Huang as a general

Xiahou Ren wrote:Btw, about Mi Fang and (Fu) Shi Ren... reprimanding his subordinates were fine, but then assigned them to guard his supplies while he went to make yet another enemy. What the hell?


He doesn't really seem to have the officers to change things around and Mi Fang is a long serving member of Shu, an in-law to Liu Bei, so would seem a pretty reliable choice. The problem is once Mi Fang and co mess up, Guan Yu is going to upset them either way whether he holds punishment over their heads or punishes them immediately.

Xiahou Ren wrote:Wow. That is actually, looks a bit cool. It looks like an honorable thing to do. Stupid, but honorable.


Oh I agree the lack of tact was daft but I think anybody in his position was diplomatically doomed anyway

Xiahou Ren wrote:Funny thing about Fan battle is, strategist from both Wu and Wei nailed Guan Yu's move perfectly. While Shu, on the other hand, his own friends... basically just let him to die. Where were everybody really?


Shu was clearly not expecting the Wu invasion or else they might have dispatched officers from Yi or Guan Yu would have pulled back to secure Jing. I imagine Liu Bei was securing his hold on Yi, perhaps would have sent forces against Nanman or soon after Guan Yu retreated from Fan, would have attacked from Hanzhong himself while Wei was still rattled.

Xiahou Ren wrote:Eh, both Guan Yu and Jiang Wei are pure warrior in my book. Powerful, dumb, all brawn-no-brain warrior type with 70-ish leadership, 90-ish war, and 30-ish everything else. That alone didn't make them bad in my eyes, but rather what they had done.


I'm not sure that is fair. Jiang Wei wasn't really a warrior, he was a general and that was something he was good at, he seems to have been quite intelligent.

The problem is that, while he had the brains, he hadn't the temperament for being Shu's CIC. Give him a small army under someone like Fei Yi and he causes problems for opponents. Give him control of the army and he does badly. Jiang Wei seems to have been fame hungry and didn't think long term, just whatever would get him an army to attack Wei and try to win.
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Re: Did Guan Yu ever do anything noteworthy?

Unread postby To Establish Peace » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:36 am

Jiang Wei is the embodiment of the Peter Principle at work. Great staff officer, great adjutant, great battlefield tactician - he was just promoted one level too high. He just didn't have the skillset to be CIC and regent, and probably did more than anybody else to destroy Shu which makes me resent him, but let's not pretend the guy didn't have a shitton of raw talent.
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