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Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:09 pm
by KingOfWei
In the book, of course, Zhuge Liang is god himself, but historically which of the three kingdoms had the better strategists?

I would probably derive what it means to have the "best strategists" as against all odds, their strategies turned the tide of battle in their favor against overwhelming odds.

Like Guandu and Chibi, those were strategic masterpieces.

I just wanted to try and compare strategists between the three kingdoms and see which kingdom truly was the "smartest" if you understand me.

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:40 pm
by Sam Pednekar
Kongmin is the best strategist ever no need to think about anybody else he is the right choise. :mrgreen:

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:08 pm
by Xiahou Ren
I'm pretty sure Zhuge Liang was actually more of an administrator/politician/civil officer, than a strategist.

I could think only 2 people who had a near spotless career, Lu Meng and Jia Xu. Lu Meng had a better overall achievement than Jia Xu, but Jia Xu seemed to be better in mind games and tactical warfare. So for me, Jia Xu was the best strategic mind in the three kingdoms era.

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:10 pm
by Dong Zhou
KingOfWei wrote:Like Guandu and Chibi, those were strategic masterpieces.


Compared to Shiting and Lu Meng's 219 invasion of Jing, probably not. Guan Du was more lots of good pieces of advice from Wei to keep hanging on, scoring little victories and then a key defection plus Cao Cao's bold gamble winning it at the last minute. Chi Bi was a very scrappy affair, more about Zhou Yu rallying Sun Quan and leading a skilful navy, Huang Gai's fire idea and Wei's disadvantages of illness and lack of naval expirence.

Shu can probably be ruled out, they didn't really have strategists but clever generals like Liu Bei, Zhang Fei, Wang Ping, Zhang Yi.

Maybe my tired mind but Wu has more memorable big strategy victories and they had a lot of very good tacticians but still give to Wei. They had just many bright, miliatry minded men who knew when and where to fight, if things didn't go well in a camapign then someone would come up with something, they nearly always had that one (or two) key piece of advice that would win the camapign. Of course they also had Cao Cao and my pick was best strategist, Jia Xu

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:29 pm
by cryptguardian
Dong Zhou wrote:Compared to Shiting

battle of pooping; sorry as a westerner couldn't help myself; I guess Lu Xun & Jia Kui stand out here.
(\__/)
(='.'=)

I'd say Wei-> Cao Cao, Jia Xu, Guo Jia, Xun Yu, the Sima's, Deng Ai; quite a crafty bunch.
Wei just had so much more talent compared to the other two [Shu/Wu].

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:26 pm
by AxeLordGerardo
I don't think Guan Du were exactly a strategic victory for Cao Cao. Yes, he had good planning and his advisors came to him with fantastic key plans, like those catapults that destoyed Yuan Shao's arrow towers, but even with that lack of strategic moves by the Yuans, Yuan Shao and Cao Cao were at a deadlock. Even Cao Cao's side was about to collapse due to the shortage of supplies. Only the Wu Chao location provided by Xu You was the really critical blow for the Yuan forces. Cao Cao simply adopted the best defending option, modifying the strategy when needed and waiting the heavens give him a chance to change the tide of the battle. Strategy? Maybe. Luck? Sure
Anyway, Tian Feng was not there either. He refused to wage war so early, so we don’t know what ideas could he come up with.

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:13 pm
by XuSheng
Lu Meng and Jia Xu are the good answer.

Wei overall had the best strategists. The likes of Sima Yi, Jia Xu and Deng Ai are hard to beat.

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:56 am
by ROTKobsessed
I would say Wei overall had the largest number of talented strategists...

A lot of Wu's success seemed to come from skilled commanders rather than strategists (e.g. Sun Ce himself, Lu Meng's victory against Guan Yu, Zhou Yu) - although I guess there is a case to be argued 'were they commanders or strategists?' since many seemed to fill the roll of both and definitions can be a little hazy.

Unfortunately for Shu, a lot of their most able strategists seemed to die early: novel wise, Xu Shu and Pang Tong - as well as Fa Zheng and Ma Su.

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:12 pm
by Sun Fin
Others have alluded to it but the answer is Wei because they are the kingdom that made the most use of strategists. Shu had 2 that come to mind (Pang Tong and Fa Zheng) but the short period of time they served meant they had little impact. Meanwhile many of the Wu officers we think of as strategists were instead commanders. Lu Fan is the only out and out strategist that comes to my mind. Whereas Wei had many people who filled that capacity including Jia Xu and Guo Jia probably the best two advisers of that era.

Re: Which kingdom had the overall better strategists?

Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:00 am
by Dtjahyadi
It's gotta be Wei

The amount of highly talented people in Cao Cao's side alone is tremendous. Nobody can come to match with Zhuge Liang in a one on one battle of wits, but to manage a kingdom you'll need more than 1 brain. Wei's number will means that the central plain will continue to flourish and well managed (unlike Shu without Zhuge Liang).

In real life, managing a Kingdom like Wei,Wu and Shu is more than just campaign, there's heaps of internal turmoil and conspiracy at every corner and even if it's not in the novel, I'm sure running a kingdom at war is no easy task.