Liu Bei vs. Gongsun Zan

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Liu Bei vs. Gongsun Zan

Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:50 am

A little while back at SOC I had an argument with a guy over who was better, Gongsun Zan or Liu Bei. Obviously I said Liu Bei was much better. I am curious to hear everyone here's opinion.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:59 am

Liu Bei was better overall as a military leader and strategist combined, so if you are going by pure skill, then I say Liu Bei. The reason why I respect Gongsun Zan more is because he fought with Yuan Shao to the end and never gave in. He could have surrendured to Yuan Shao and backstabbed him later on but he was better than that. Liu Bei turned his back on every single person he served all in the name of ambition. Lu Bu saved his life and what does he do when Lu Bu is about to be executed by Cao Cao, he tells Cao Cao to carry on. He turned his back on everyone who treated him well and he was a traitor. Liu Bei was better skilled but Gongsun Zan was a better man.
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Unread postby Liu Jin » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:03 am

Gongsun Zan was better :P . He has a LOT more experience than Liu Bei, and won a great deal of officers to his side (i think..). Although I'm a SHU suportter...

Gongsun Zan just died early because he didn't pick the right guy to mess with (Yuan Shao). If he would've been in teh FAR south when the Yellow Turbans or the Dong Zhuo thingie started, then he would become very powerful. Most rulers gain thier fame from Yellow Turbans, but even if Gongsun Zan didn't fight in the Yellow Turbans, he will still gain some fame.

Although he has some officers, I don't think he really used them well. Ahem..Zhao Yun. If he would've lived longer and used ZHao Yun very well, then I don't think he would've been beaten. Heck, he could've even defeat Yuan Shao!

Now back to Liu Bei. Liu Bei had the help of Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, and Zhao Yun. Without them, he would've never gain fame raipidly or gain the land of Shu. Even if he has Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong and they would've still lived, he still wouldn't get Shu that fast.

Sorry if I'm saying the stupidest thing in the world.. :cry:
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Unread postby Azian Zenzation » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:14 am

Zhang Liao17 wrote:Liu Bei was better overall as a military leader and strategist combined, so if you are going by pure skill, then I say Liu Bei. The reason why I respect Gongsun Zan more is because he fought with Yuan Shao to the end and never gave in. He could have surrendured to Yuan Shao and backstabbed him later on but he was better than that. Liu Bei turned his back on every single person he served all in the name of ambition. Lu Bu saved his life and what does he do when Lu Bu is about to be executed by Cao Cao, he tells Cao Cao to carry on. He turned his back on everyone who treated him well and he was a traitor. Liu Bei was better skilled but Gongsun Zan was a better man.


:shock: When did Lu Bu save Liu Bei's life? :?
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:26 am

Zhang Liao17 wrote:Liu Bei was better overall as a military leader and strategist combined, so if you are going by pure skill, then I say Liu Bei. The reason why I respect Gongsun Zan more is because he fought with Yuan Shao to the end and never gave in. He could have surrendured to Yuan Shao and backstabbed him later on but he was better than that. Liu Bei turned his back on every single person he served all in the name of ambition. Lu Bu saved his life and what does he do when Lu Bu is about to be executed by Cao Cao, he tells Cao Cao to carry on. He turned his back on everyone who treated him well and he was a traitor. Liu Bei was better skilled but Gongsun Zan was a better man.


He committed suicide. Suicide is a coward's way out. It takes a man to choose to deal with his life. Perhaps Shao would of killed him, perhaps not.
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Unread postby Maria » Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:54 am

Gongsun Zan was better. Liu Bei was a great friend of his, but yet he served Yuan Shao rather than stick with Zan. Gongsun was undoubtly a skilled leader. He never was interested in changing his views easily, whereas Liu Bei's decisions were mostly influenced by Kongming
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:14 am

Dragon_Girl wrote:Gongsun Zan was better. Liu Bei was a great friend of his, but yet he served Yuan Shao rather than stick with Zan. Gongsun was undoubtly a skilled leader. He never was interested in changing his views easily, whereas Liu Bei's decisions were mostly influenced by Kongming


Zan was dead by then. And Liu Bei was almost fifty when Zhuge Liang joined him. Get your facts straight.
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Unread postby Maria » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:09 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:
Dragon_Girl wrote:Gongsun Zan was better. Liu Bei was a great friend of his, but yet he served Yuan Shao rather than stick with Zan. Gongsun was undoubtly a skilled leader. He never was interested in changing his views easily, whereas Liu Bei's decisions were mostly influenced by Kongming


Zan was dead by then. And Liu Bei was almost fifty when Zhuge Liang joined him. Get your facts straight.


What I was saying is, even before Liu Bei met Kongming, he didn't have a firm view of all his actions. Zan was a decent ruler, in terms of ruling. He didn't go changing sides and all. Liu Bei kept doing it until he met Zhuge. I didn't say Zan was there when Xuande met Kongming.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:39 am

Dragon_Girl wrote:
Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:What I was saying is, even before Liu Bei met Kongming, he didn't have a firm view of all his actions. Zan was a decent ruler, in terms of ruling. He didn't go changing sides and all. Liu Bei kept doing it until he met Zhuge. I didn't say Zan was there when Xuande met Kongming.


To clarify what I meant. Zan was dead when Liu Bei joined Yuan Shu. And Liu Bei made more of his own decisions than Kong Ming did. Kong Ming made all the choices for Liu Shan, not Liu Bei. Only in SGYY was it made to appear otherwise.

And big deal. Gongsun Zan never changed sides. Whoopee. He never had a chance to. He was stupid enough to pick a fight with a larger more powerful and much smarter ruler. Good decision there.
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Unread postby Lance » Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:47 pm

Well....I admit it's beyond my understanding how some one could figure that Liu Bei is better than Gongsun Zan....BUT, at least you people seem reasonable and open to discussion like some SOC members I won't mention......Anyways, here goes......I'll show how Liu Bei betrayed absolutely no one.....he was just following his wish to save the Han, his oath of brotherhood(sealed with blood), and fleeing Cao Cao.
1)Serving Liu Yan
No betrayal here. Liu Bei and his brothers do excellent against the Yellow Turban rebels, Liu Bei leading the troops to victory while Guan Yu and Zhang Fei slay Cheng Yuanzhi and Deng Mao respectively. For his heroism in putting down the Yellow Turbans and a reccomendation from his better known friend Gongsun Zan, Liu becomes Protector of Ping Yuan.
2)Tao Qian
Liu Bei is dispatched with Tian Kai to save Qian from Cao Cao, in Cao's only early display of his ambitions. Cao Cao is beaten off by the re-inforcements, but Qian, fearing a second attack, asks Liu to stay. Then, Qian falls ill and he and his officers, as well as Guan and Zhang, have to convince Liu Bei to be Governor. Again, no betrayal.
3)Lu Bu
Lu Bu gets scattered by Cao Cao and hearing of Liu's reputation, seeks refuge. Liu Bei, loathe to pass up so great a warrior and hoping to teach him the error of his ways, takes him in. However, while Liu is fighting Emperor Yuan Shu, Lu Bu tricks Zhang Fei into allowing Lu Bu to take Xu. When Liu Bei hears of this betrayal, he seeks Cao Cao's aid in getting his land back, which he recieves. Lu Bu's the only one who does betraying here.
4)Girdle Decreement
This is why Liu Bei turns on Cao, appalled by Cao's obvious abuse of Emperor Xian, so pointedly described in Xian's hand......in Xian's own blood. Everyone knows what happens to the Girdle Decreement......
5)Yuan Shao
Liu is again scattered, and seeks revenge on Cao for his treachery. What better way to get it than serve Cao Cao's worst enemy? However, Guan Yu ends up with Cao, and this strains relations between Yuan and Liu when Guan kills Wen Chou and Yan Liang. However, shortly after Guan-Du, Liu Bei hears news of Zhang Fei's whereabouts....he's based in old Ru Nan castle. Liu Bei rushes to his brother, AFTER all hope is lost for Yuan Shao, and, Liu, being a guest, leaves. No betrayal again.
Well......I admit I'm in a bit of a hurry........but this should be sufficent for my fellow Liu Bei supporters......just because Gongsun Zan had more "honor" doesn't make him better.....
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