what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

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what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Shu hero » Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:29 pm

Hellow every one this is my first post here and i hope you like it.

i want to talk about a change of history topic me and my friends talk about and get your opinion.

liu bei created the foundation of the shu kingodm but died before he decleared himself emperor.
cao cao created the foundation of the wei kingodm but died of illnuss before become the emperor of wei.
sun quan ruled his kingdom but died before becoming emperor.

but the problem is liu bei,cao cao and sun quan die with out having children what will happen with out an legitimate heir?
would a loyal subject declear himself ruler, would a relative of some sort take over or will the kingdom fall apart.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:57 pm

Presumably, someone would take over.

Wei had Sima Yi (whose family eventually DID take over).
Shu had Zhuge Liang all but running the place, so there'd be no complaints.
Wu would likely be the trickiest one; the first regent for Sun Quan's heir (Zhuge Ke) screwed up, so the kingdom may wind up splitting. Still, seeing as the second and third regents were ALSO members of Sun Quan's clan (both were grandsons of Sun Quan's uncle), it may have stayed unified -- especially if Zhuge Ke was sitting on the throne instead of leading troops.

Also keep in mind that Wei and Wu had BIG families; Cao Cao had no less than 25 (twenty-five) children, while Sun Quan was the second of five (and had another seven sons) -- see http://kongming.net/novel/trees/caoxiahou.txt and http://kongming.net/novel/trees/sun_detailed.html .
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:43 pm

First of all Sun Quan did become Emperor. If he didn't have a son I suspect it would have passed back to Sun Ce's line; either Sun Shao or perhaps even Lu Xun!

Liu Bei had an adopted son, Liu Feng would take over.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby capnnerefir » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:51 pm

Shu hero wrote:cao cao created the foundation of the wei kingodm but died of illnuss before become the emperor of wei.

Historically, that's what happened. I don't know how it goes in fictional works, but in history, Cao Cao never declared himself emperor.

Shu hero wrote:but the problem is liu bei,cao cao and sun quan die with out having children what will happen with out an legitimate heir?
would a loyal subject declear himself ruler, would a relative of some sort take over or will the kingdom fall apart.


Things are trickiest in "Wei", since during Cao Cao's life it was actually the Han dynasty - Wei didn't exist until after he passed away. After Cao Cao's death, his authority as Chancellor would have been passed on to someone else, or the positions of the Three Excellencies would have been restored. Historically, Cao Pi was made Chancellor for about a month, then he gave that position to Hua Xin.

Assuming that there was no Cao Pi or other direct heir for Cao Cao, authority would have been passed on to one of the other prominent ministers of Wei. At that time, the biggest names were Zhong Yao, Hua Xin and Wang Lang. Zhong Yao was the most prestigious of these ministers, and it seems likely that he would be the one to succeed Cao Cao as Chancellor.

What would have happened with Zhong Yao in charge is a little difficult to say. He certainly would have done a good job of running the empire, but whether he would be loyal to the Han is difficult to tell. He was certainly a strong supporter of the Cao family, but if that family ended with Cao Cao, that'd be pretty irrelevant. Zhong Yao doesn't seem like the type to try and take the throne for himself, so the Han dynasty probably would have remained in power for some time.

In the end, though, whether it was Wei or Han, I think things would have ended up the same. Eventually the Sima family would have taken over - and probably a whole lot sooner, since Liu Xian was far less competent than Cao Pi or Cao Rui. The Sima family would have conquered Shu and Wu and united China under the Jin dynasty. Then it would all fall apart after Jia Nanfeng's death.

Sun Fin wrote:First of all Sun Quan did become Emperor. If he didn't have a son I suspect it would have passed back to Sun Ce's line; either Sun Shao or perhaps even Lu Xun!

Lu Xun died before Sun Quan, so he wouldn't really be a suitable candidate for succession.

Sun Fin wrote:Liu Bei had an adopted son, Liu Feng would take over.

Likewise, Liu Bei killed Liu Feng several years before he died, so Feng wouldn't have been available to take over. Which is rather unfortunate, as he seems to have been a rather upstanding fellow.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:56 pm

Both Lu Xun and Liu Feng died in relation to succession issues. Lu Xun was forced to commit suicide because he supported the wrong son and Zhuge Liang urged the death of Feng out of fear over him creating issues at Bei's death. If neither Bei or Quan had sons they could have both been alive at the times of their respective rulers deaths.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:03 pm

Welcome to the forum ShuHero

capnnerefir wrote:Historically, that's not what happened. I don't know how it goes in fictional works, but in history, Cao Cao never declared himself emperor.


I suspect you missed a key word so inserted for clarity? In the novel, Cao Cao doesn't take the throne either. I assume ShuHero means something like after fall of Hanzhong.

Sun Fin wrote:First of all Sun Quan did become Emperor. If he didn't have a son I suspect it would have passed back to Sun Ce's line; either Sun Shao or perhaps even Lu Xun!


I think ShuHero means Sun Quan, in this scenario, dies before he becomes emperor. If wrong, will have to amend my Wu entry

I would suggest for all that 1) either a sibling or kinsman takes over as Quan did his brother Ce or 2) an adoption when the lack of children is apparent like Cao Rui did and Liu Bei did with Liu Feng. Taking each one in turn

1) Shu taken Hanzhong and Liu Feng, who wouldn't be sent to a border town thus embroiled in Guan Yu's defeat and not a threat (as Liang viewed him) but kept in Yi, taking over.. probably doesn't go well. Not fully integrated with the Yi gentry as it is, slightly less clear claims to Han and... well Liu Feng's handling of events after the fall of Guan Yu was alarming. I fear he would alienate key allies and provoke Yi figures into revolt. Wu and Wei would seek to exploit such instability.

2) Cao Cao's successor is very hard to guess and he would have had to be even more ruthless to secure the adopted's succession. Cao Pi had the advantage of wide amount of officer support, eldest son and it still required a lot of ruthless cunning to see off his rivals. It will be far harder for an adopted and the route mentions of ousting heir that capnnerefir touches on in his post could be used by Han or ambition factions to seize power and potentially a civil war

3) Sun Quan did have one sibling, Sun Lang, whose one act was a disaster or he could adopt any of the many nephews. It would require all Quan's personal strength to secure the succession and I fear similar chaos after his death, though with perhaps less coups due to have an adult emperor.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:59 am

I forgot about adopted kids. Cao Cao adopted a few people as well, didn't he? Qin Lang and He Yan, was it?

Anyway...I would venture a guess that, were Cao Cao without an heir, he would be keenly aware of this glaring issue, and groom someone to succeed him in his role, and be his heir in spirit. It makes me curious who he had the right kind of relationship with to get the nod from him. I am tempted to say Xiahou Dun but since Xiahou Dun did not live much longer, and his son Xiahou Mao had a famously less than remarkable career, I am not sure it would end well.

Liu Bei and Sun Quan, I think they were covered from various angles well enough. Since they had established themselves as emperors upon their deaths, their kingdoms' fates seem fairly straightforward, depending on what course of action is taken. I think the key point is that nobody would have just sat there thinking, "I have no heir, oh well!"
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:07 am

...fortunately for Cao Cao, Xiahou Mao was Xiahou Dun's second son; Xiahou Dun's titles were inherited by his first son, Xiahou Chong.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:22 am

DragonAtma wrote:...fortunately for Cao Cao, Xiahou Mao was Xiahou Dun's second son; Xiahou Dun's titles were inherited by his first son, Xiahou Chong.


So, a rather unknown fellow. I guess it's better than Xiahou Mao. :lol:

I think the main issue is more Xiahou Dun dying relatively soon after, however. He had lineage to carry on, but Cao Cao dying and then Xiahou Dun dying not long after would probably create a lot of turbulence.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:32 am

Presumably Xiahou Chong was not skilled enough to get an important post under wei, but not clueless enough to get stripped of his position.

As for the double succession, yes, that could be an issue.... although if Xiahou Dun's health was already failing by then, he could just ask his heir to "assist" him, and when Xiahou Dun passes away, people would already be used to Xiahou Chong being a major power. Cao Cao's no fool, so I'm sure he'd be grooming Xiahou Chong as well!
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