what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:04 am

Zyzyfer wrote:I forgot about adopted kids. Cao Cao adopted a few people as well, didn't he? Qin Lang and He Yan, was it?



Not sure if adopted or just step sons he really loved and not sure who was the eldest. From what I remember, Qin Lang was a well meant but not particularly bright man so can see him getting outmanoeuvred while He Yan, though a man of great intellect and ability, would surely fail given his arrogance, non-Confucian beliefs and eccentrics where a PR disaster for Cao Shuang.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:50 pm

Cao Zhen and Cao Xiu were also treated as sons; they were far more competent than He Yan.

But then again, that would make them heirs, so the hypothetical is not healthy for them. >_>
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:12 pm

They were highly skilled generals, He Yan was a brilliant philosopher so I wouldn't say one was more competent then the other.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby capnnerefir » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:17 pm

He Yan seems like the most likely choice to me. He definitely proved himself ambitious enough during the Zhengshi era, he was from a relatively prestigious family (being He Jin's grandson and all) and was greatly respected for his intellect. He and Cao Cao got along very well, and if Cao Cao had no natural sons of his own, I think that He Yan is definitely who he would have groomed as his successor.

I'm not really sure how well that would have ended, given that He Yan's time in office was sort of a low point for Wei, but if he had been groomed as Cao Cao's heir, things might have turned out better.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:02 am

Unfortunately, I don't think He Yan would turn out as well as he'd seem.

"He Yan was also known to be extremely vain. The scholar Fu Jia criticized him as being one who spoke of great things but was himself small-minded. Fu Jia further said that He Yan was good at debate and argument, but he lacked sincerity. Ultimately, Fu Jia feared what would happen if people heeded He Yan’s advice." -- from the He Yan bio (which, ironically, was provided by capnnerefir!).

He makes me think of Ma Xu, Cao Zhi, and Sun Hao -- full of talent and promise, yet not living up to it. I feel it's most likely the succession debate would wind up as Sima Yi vs He Yan (and turning out the same as Cao Pi vs Cao Zhi, much to He Yan's distress!)
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:50 am

DragonAtma wrote:But then again, that would make them heirs, so the hypothetical is not healthy for them. >_>


Could be, but there is no way to tell since the topic starter has not really clarified on the meaning of no heirs. I have my suspicions that he or she meant these three suddenly die with no child or relative in place to take over for them, which is just far too unlikely given their long lives and the prevalence for adopting to continue a particular and important branch of a family tree. So it's really a non-issue for Sun Quan and Liu Bei as we can be sure they would have done something about the lack of heir problem, as would Cao Cao for his King of Wei title. Not much discussion wiggle room there, unfortunately. Cao Cao's chancellor position, on the other hand...yeah, that has sparked some fun discussion.

Anyway, if this was the topic starter's intent, I think it is safe to say that Cao Zhen and/or Cao Xiu would still have been taken under Cao Cao's wing and would certainly be worthy contenders to continue Wei. But if it's a case of "pick an heir and the heir dies!" then that would be a pity. :lol:

=====

Along those lines, one idea I have been curious about - and forgive me if the topic has been done to death already - but I have wondered how things would have played out if Cao Cao, Sun Jian, Liu Bei, and their blood descendants just flat-out never existed. Like the three of them all died as infants. I never asked on SGYY Symposium because my interest in this what-if is based on designing some scenarios for one of the games, but this topic has resparked my curiosity, as the original discussion never got past the "when Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu collide" point.

Anyone care to speculate?
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:55 am

DragonAtma wrote:Unfortunately, I don't think He Yan would turn out as well as he'd seem.

"He Yan was also known to be extremely vain. The scholar Fu Jia criticized him as being one who spoke of great things but was himself small-minded. Fu Jia further said that He Yan was good at debate and argument, but he lacked sincerity. Ultimately, Fu Jia feared what would happen if people heeded He Yan’s advice." -- from the He Yan bio (which, ironically, was provided by capnnerefir!).


Like I said:

capnnerefir wrote:I'm not really sure how well that would have ended, given that He Yan's time in office was sort of a low point for Wei, but if he had been groomed as Cao Cao's heir, things might have turned out better.

I think that Cao Cao let He Yan get away with a lot, since he wasn't really intended to hold any major court position. Had Cao Cao been grooming him for succession, I think he would have been more strict with him.

I don't really think Sima Yi would have been considered for succeeding Cao Cao, though. While Sima Yi definitely had a reputation in 220, he didn't quite measure up to the likes of Zhong Yao, Wang Lang, Hua Xin, etc. yet. He would eventually surpass them all, and I think the Sima family would have taken over, but I don't think he'd have been Cao Cao's direct successor.
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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:07 am

capnnerefir wrote:I don't really think Sima Yi would have been considered for succeeding Cao Cao, though. While Sima Yi definitely had a reputation in 220, he didn't quite measure up to the likes of Zhong Yao, Wang Lang, Hua Xin, etc. yet. He would eventually surpass them all, and I think the Sima family would have taken over, but I don't think he'd have been Cao Cao's direct successor.


I do worry a bit when people totally forget about timelines and the development of careers (not saying DragonAtma did that!). Like if speculating that Cao Cao dies at Chibi, someone goes "Sima Yi takes over Wei! Hah!" :|

I would hazard that Sima Yi would probably be a key figure under one of your suggested biggies. And work his way up in prominence as he did.

=====

Actually! I just realized something, speaking of timelines. If Cao Cao dies in 220 and Wang Lang/Zhong Yao/Hua Xin/He Yan/Xiahou Dun/anyone not King of Wei take over as Chancellor...what the heck does Liu Bei do then?!?

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Re: what will happen if no heir for wu,shu and wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:31 am

I tend to take the historical account of Cao Shuang's regime with a hint of salt. A large hint. The Sima regime was hardly going to want it portrayed in a positive light and Confucian gentry of the time don't exactly seem open to rival creeds...

However due to persona, he would be a disaster. Imagine if any UK PM or President appointed an effeminate, make up wearing, drug taking, possibly highly sexual high ranking minister nowadays+arrogance+new wave thinkers. The Confucian gentry would not be too keen to serve him as the Son of Heaven
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