Curiosity about Lu Bu

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby cypherchar21193 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:15 am

so far I've played Dynasty Warriors (the entire series) and read Romance of the Three Kingdoms. From what I have read on here is that Ding Yuan was not Lu Bu's adopted father, and that a lot of people have a negative view about Lu Bu. On the other hand, when i read Romance of the Three Kingdoms like 12 times, Lu Bu only left and killed Ding Yuan because he was easily persuades and was complimented for his prowess, then when he was with Dong Zhou, he was threatened for messing with one of the Hand Maiden's (which I'm presuming is the person Diao Chan is based on) and had a spear thrown at him. He sounds pretty loyal to the Han as he technically never revolted against it. Wang Yun basically convinced Lu Bu that Dong Zhou was a tyrant, would threaten him more and was destroying the Han.

I'm guessing the only reason why Lu Bu still fought for Dong Zhou at Hu Lao Gate was because he thought the coalition was trying to overthrow the emperor? After killing Dong Zhou he went to Yuan Shao but Yuan Shao was suspicious of Lu Bu therefore he fled for his life. After being defeated by Cao Cao at Dingtao, he became Liu Bei's subordinate. This is where I remember reading that while Liu Bei went off to fight somewhere, he left Zhang Fei in command of Xia Pi where Zhang Fei also promised not to drink because of how he gets. Zhang Fei did in fact go back on his word and got drunk, beat Lu Bu's relative that was there after refusing to drink. The relative apprently went to Lu Bu and told him the story to which infuriated Lu Bu and caused him to confront Zhang Fei. Since Zhang Fei was Drunk, he most likely took this as Lu Bu rebelling and then we all know how Liu Bei found out but only Zhang Fei's side, so Liu Bei goes to Cao Cao and then the whole Seige of Xiapi happens.

The Sanguozhi stated that Lü Bu surrendered when he saw that he had been surrounded, instead of him being captured by his own subordinates who had betrayed him. His final words, said to Cao Cao and Liu Bei moments before his death, were similar to those mentioned in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Cao Cao then had Lü Bu hanged. He ordered Lü Bu's dead body to be decapitated and the head sent to the capital Xuchang and later had it buried. Lü Bu's biography in the Houhanshu mentioned that Lü Bu asked his subordinates to take his head and surrender to Cao Cao when he saw that he had been surrounded by Cao's forces. However, his subordinates were unwilling to do so, hence they surrendered together. The rest of the account is similar to that in the Sanguozhi and its annotations.

Lü Bu was tied up and brought before Cao Cao. He said, "I'm being tied up too tightly. Can you loosen the bonds?" Cao Cao replied, "A tiger must be tightly restrained." Lü Bu then said, "My lord, you dread only me, but now, since I've already submitted to you, you shouldn't have any more worries. My lord, why don't you spare me and let me help you lead your troops? In this way, you won't need to worry about not being able to pacify the Empire." When Cao Cao showed signs of reconsideration, Liu Bei said, "My lord, haven't you seen what Lü Bu did to Ding Jianyang and Grand Preceptor Dong?" Cao Cao rubbed his chin. Lü Bu shouted at Liu Bei, "You're the most untrustworthy person!"[Sanguozhi 24]
Additional details about the conversation between Lü Bu and Cao Cao were recorded in other texts and they were later added by Pei Songzhi as annotations to the Sanguozhi.

The Yingxiong Ji recorded:
Lü Bu said to Cao Cao, "I treated my subordinates generously, but they betrayed me when I was in trouble." Cao Cao replied, "You abandoned your wife, and you have designs on your men's wives. You call this 'treating them generously'?" Lü Bu remained silent.[Sanguozhi zhu 18]

The Xiandi Chunqiu recorded:
Lü Bu asked Cao Cao, "My lord, you've lost weight. Why?" Cao Cao asked him, "How do you recognize me?" Lü Bu replied, "When I was in Luoyang, I saw you at the Wen Family Gardens (溫氏園)." Cao Cao said, "Yes, I forgot. I lost weight because I'm depressed over not having recruited you earlier." Lü Bu said, "In the past, Duke Huan of Qi forgave Guan Zhong for injuring him earlier and even appointed Guan as his chancellor. Now, is it possible for you to allow me to do my best to serve you?" As Lü Bu had been tightly restrained, he turned to Liu Bei and said, "Xuande, you're a guest here. I'm a prisoner being tied up. Why don't you say anything to help me?" Cao Cao laughed and said, "Why do you turn to him instead of speaking directly to me?" Cao Cao had the intention of sparing Lü Bu so he ordered his men to loosen Lü's bonds. However, Wang Bi (王必), a Registrar (主簿) under Cao Cao, interrupted, "Lü Bu is a powerful foe and his subordinates are nearby. He should not be spared." Cao Cao then said to Lü Bu, "I wanted to spare your life, but my Registrar says no. So, what should I do?"

so i guess what I'm trying to get at is, can we really say that Lu Bu was greedy, savage and traitorous to the max and was simply not given the opportunity to state his side of the story?
cypherchar21193
Tyro
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:53 pm

You seem to be combining history and novel? Zhang Fei's drinking in Xu is novel

It's hard to see Lu Bu's killing of Ding Yuan as anything but a brutal backstab that tarnishes his reputation. There were probably practical reasons for it and he may have been awed by the famed general seeking his help but still, it is a tarnisher. The Dong one seems fair enough and serving Dong isn't a black mark in itself as several good men, like Huangfu Song, did. However I wouldn't claim he was a Han loyalist, there just doesn't seem enough evidence that he put them ahead of his own interests.

DW paints him as an idiot warrior/traitor but one who loves Diao Chan. The novel did portray him as an idiot and a traitor but I don't think savage describes him and there was a sweet side. Historically he could be greedy, arrogant and was a backstabber but I think more and more also see his kind side, that he wasn't too bad in the great scheme of things.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14449
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby cypherchar21193 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:53 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:You seem to be combining history and novel? Zhang Fei's drinking in Xu is novel.

ahh i see, so but there is still a possibility that he did drink since we do not know everything that happened right? :0

Dong Zhou wrote:It's hard to see Lu Bu's killing of Ding Yuan as anything but a brutal backstab that tarnishes his reputation. There were probably practical reasons for it and he may have been awed by the famed general seeking his help but still, it is a tarnisher. The Dong one seems fair enough and serving Dong isn't a black mark in itself as several good men, like Huangfu Song, did. However I wouldn't claim he was a Han loyalist, there just doesn't seem enough evidence that he put them ahead of his own interests.

i saw it as Lu Bu being drawn away to a more famous general as a child would follow a celebrity, i may be wrong but i do agree that it was kind of brutal to kill him instead of just changing allegiance to another officer. More or less he was a Han Loyalist, he did kill Dong Zhou in the name of the Han but i guess it was out of anger and not true loyalty to it. lol who in that era wasn't pretending to be loyal to the Han to further their ambition.

Dong Zhou wrote:DW paints him as an idiot warrior/traitor but one who loves Diao Chan. The novel did portray him as an idiot and a traitor but I don't think savage describes him and there was a sweet side. Historically he could be greedy, arrogant and was a backstabber but I think more and more also see his kind side, that he wasn't too bad in the great scheme of things.

overall in the dw games Lu Bu was a savage bad*** while the novel did portray him as of someone with average intelligence that made stupid decisions. while i find out more about Lu Bu historically, i find him more interesting than most of the character because while others tried to be all high class and perfect, he was being more human by going for things that make him happy. :lol:
cypherchar21193
Tyro
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:15 am

Zhang Fei probably did drink wine but he wasn't a Cao Zhi or a Sun Quan and while what happened in Xu is a little unclear, none of the claims suggest drink was the issue

As for Han loyalists: Liu Yu, Huangfu Song are the two most famous, Xun Yu perhaps, Wang Yun, but there were others.

Lu Bu wasn't above propaganda and trying to make himself look good. He was a warlord after all
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14449
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby cypherchar21193 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:53 am

true true, i think most people would have tried to do the same thing if they were in that position.

do you think if Lu Bu was not executed, Cao Cao would have taken him in?
cypherchar21193
Tyro
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby capnnerefir » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:16 am

cypherchar21193 wrote:true true, i think most people would have tried to do the same thing if they were in that position.

do you think if Lu Bu was not executed, Cao Cao would have taken him in?

Well, Cao Cao usually recruited surrendered enemies, particularly in his early days when he was still gathering his army. He was happy enough to receive Zhang Liao and he went out of his way to track down Zang Ba. So if he had decided not to execute Lü Bu, I can't really see any reason why he wouldn't have employed him.
User avatar
capnnerefir
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:41 pm

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:32 am

If we are talking about the time Chen Gong talked Lu Bu out of surrender then yes, Cao Cao would likely have accepted it. Probably, in a bid to encourage future surrenders, good money and some high sounding rank but not sure Lu Bu would be used like Zhang Xiu was, simply due to Lu Bu seemingly being a declining force
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14449
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby cypherchar21193 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:29 pm

capnnerefir wrote:Well, Cao Cao usually recruited surrendered enemies, particularly in his early days when he was still gathering his army. He was happy enough to receive Zhang Liao and he went out of his way to track down Zang Ba. So if he had decided not to execute Lü Bu, I can't really see any reason why he wouldn't have employed him.

Cao Cao would have an even strong force with him if Lu Bu surrendered and been employed. Even though Lu Bu was shown to be somewhat smart in what he was doing and kind of traitorous, he would have learned his lesson eventually. I'm pretty sure Lu Bu would have known that if he betrayed Cao Cao that would have been the end of him in a second.

Dong Zhou wrote: ...Probably, in a bid to encourage future surrenders, good money and some high sounding rank but not sure Lu Bu would be used like Zhang Xiu was, simply due to Lu Bu seemingly being a declining force

what do you mean exactly?
cypherchar21193
Tyro
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby capnnerefir » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:58 pm

cypherchar21193 wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote: ...Probably, in a bid to encourage future surrenders, good money and some high sounding rank but not sure Lu Bu would be used like Zhang Xiu was, simply due to Lu Bu seemingly being a declining force

what do you mean exactly?

I believe what he means is that, in order to encourage other enemies to surrender to him, Cao Cao would appear to treat Lu Bu well, giving him a lot of money and a title that sounded important. Cao Cao treated other surrendered enemies this way (such as Zhang Lu), and Dong Zhou gives us Zhang Xiu as an example. Zhang Xiu was a successful general before surrendering to Cao Cao and Cao Cao continued to make use of him after his surrender, letting him lead armies. Unfortunately, Zhang Xiu passed away during the campaign against the Wuhuan in 207. However, Dong Zhou says that Lu Bu was really losing his touch by the time Cao Cao caught him, so Cao Cao probably wouldn't have had much use for him. So he'd give him money and a nice title and stick him somewhere he couldn't do any harm; as opposed to using him as a general the way he did with Zhang Xiu.
User avatar
capnnerefir
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:41 pm

Re: Curiosity about Lu Bu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Yep capnnerefir got my meaning and explained it well.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14449
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved