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Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:43 am
by Jadeklore
Hi there. Does anyone know where I can find maps of China at certain points, illustrating the borders between warlords and labelling major locations; during the time of the Yellow Scarf Rebellion, or during the power struggle between He Jin and the Ten; during the Period when Yuan Shu proclaimed himself Emperor, and Lü Bu and Yuan Shao held territories; and during Red Cliff, when the North was unified under Cao Cao, and the south-east, under Sun Quan. Thanks.

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:08 pm
by DragonAtma
Map of the yellow turban rebellion: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101229201260/thethreekingdoms/images/5/54/Yellow_Turbans_Organization.jpg

The "war" between he jin and the ten attendants was basically a political war -- although it still ended with lots of deaths. The eunuchs didn't have any land to call their own (aside from their homes), and most of the action was in Luoyang, especially in the palace and other government buildings.

https://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/42048/20/map02.pdf is a map of where the major warlords (and zhang lu) were. For reference:
* Gongsun Zan seized the western half of You; Gongsun Du (and his descendants) had the eastern half on orders form Dong Zhuo. To my knowledge, they weren't related.
* Yuan Shu had Yu and the northwestern part of Yang (basically the parts beyond the river). He gained limited control over a decent part of the rest of Yang (via Sun Ce), but when he declared himself emperor, Sun Ce immediately cut ties, and Yuan Shu lost the rest of his land within a couple years.
* Yuan Shao started with Bohai in eastern Ji; he gradually increased his territory until he had all of Ji, Qing, and Bing, and the western half of You.
* Lu Bu seized Changan and held it for little over a month; later he helped Zhang Miao take most of Yan, but Cao Cao recovered it and Lu Bu was forced to flee. Finally, Lu Bu wound up serving under and then betrayting Liu Bei and runnign Xu...until Liu Bei and Cao Cao teamed up to retake it. He also spent time under Ding Yuan, Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shao, and Zhang Yang.
* During the battle of chi bi, Cao Cao held You, Ji, Bing, Qing, Yan, Yu, Xu, Si Li, and at least some of Jing (if not most), plus the lords of Liang were his vassals. Sun Quan had Yang, while Liu Qi (and Liu Bei, who served under him) had at least one of Jing's prefectures (Jiangxia) if not the whole prefecture, along with much of Jing's soldiers.

For reference, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_of_Red_Cliffs_208_extended_map-en.svg is a map of the red cliff campaign.

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:16 pm
by Jadeklore
DragonAtma wrote:Map of the yellow turban rebellion: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101229201260/thethreekingdoms/images/5/54/Yellow_Turbans_Organization.jpg

The "war" between he jin and the ten attendants was basically a political war -- although it still ended with lots of deaths. The eunuchs didn't have any land to call their own (aside from their homes), and most of the action was in Luoyang, especially in the palace and other government buildings.

https://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/42048/20/map02.pdf is a map of where the major warlords (and zhang lu) were. For reference:
* Gongsun Zan seized the western half of You; Gongsun Du (and his descendants) had the eastern half on orders form Dong Zhuo. To my knowledge, they weren't related.
* Yuan Shu had Yu and the northwestern part of Yang (basically the parts beyond the river). He gained limited control over a decent part of the rest of Yang (via Sun Ce), but when he declared himself emperor, Sun Ce immediately cut ties, and Yuan Shu lost the rest of his land within a couple years.
* Yuan Shao started with Bohai in eastern Ji; he gradually increased his territory until he had all of Ji, Qing, and Bing, and the western half of You.
* Lu Bu seized Changan and held it for little over a month; later he helped Zhang Miao take most of Yan, but Cao Cao recovered it and Lu Bu was forced to flee. Finally, Lu Bu wound up serving under and then betrayting Liu Bei and runnign Xu...until Liu Bei and Cao Cao teamed up to retake it. He also spent time under Ding Yuan, Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shao, and Zhang Yang.
* During the battle of chi bi, Cao Cao held You, Ji, Bing, Qing, Yan, Yu, Xu, Si Li, and at least some of Jing (if not most), plus the lords of Liang were his vassals. Sun Quan had Yang, while Liu Qi (and Liu Bei, who served under him) had at least one of Jing's prefectures (Jiangxia) if not the whole prefecture, along with much of Jing's soldiers.

For reference, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_of_Red_Cliffs_208_extended_map-en.svg is a map of the red cliff campaign.


thanks, really really helpful. does anyone have a map in the late Three Kingdoms Period? say, during the incident at gaoping tombs?

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:39 am
by DragonAtma
This three kingdoms in 262 AD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_5.jpg

Gaoping Tombs (249 AD) was pretty much the same.

In both cases, for the unshaded gaps... sure, they were claimed by the respective kingdoms, but (much like rural Wyoming) there were few if any people. It's a bit hard to build a city on the side of a mountain! XD

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:52 am
by Jadeklore
Thanks. That pretty much wraps it up. Durng Changban and Red Cliff, was the territory division in the South-West pretty much as it is in map2, or were there differences?

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:22 pm
by DragonAtma
Pretty much; the main difference is that Liu Yan/Liu Zhang didn't control all of Yi. Yong Kai (or his predecessor?) and the nanman ruled the southern, sparsely populated half of Yi (which was mostly offmap), and (after Liu Yan's death) Zhang Lu ruled Nanzhong. Liu Yan didn't get a chance to conquer the southern half, and Liu Zhang was too incompetent and unambitious to do so. as for Zhang Lu, he was at least somewhat autonomous under Liu Yan, and held a low opinion of Liu Zhang's abilities.

Oh, and Jing's Nanyang prefecture was definitely under Cao Cao's control (as Zhang Xiu -- who had controlled it and was nominally allied with Liu Biao -- surrendered to Cao Cao in 197, rebelled, and surrendered again in 200).

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:11 pm
by Jordan
Slight but important typo there DragonAtma. Zhang Lu ruled Hanzhong rather than Nanzhong.

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:54 pm
by DragonAtma
Whoops! Yeah, sorry...

Hanzhong (one commandery, northeast Yi) was Zhang Lu.
Nanzhong (four commanderies, southern half of Yi) was Yong Kai.

Having such similar names is as silly as putting Nan Commandery and Nanyang Commandery in the same province. >_>

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:07 pm
by Jadeklore
Thanks everyone

Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:15 pm
by Erdrick
Kind of similar, are there any good "timeline'd" maps, i.e., that were done in the Han-esque period or done in the supposed style, (like a good view of the maps from the TK(2010) series)? Those (from-ish the time period) seem to be harder to hunt down than maps of the time period