Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Jolt » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:02 am

capnnerefir wrote:Researching Zhuge Liang's 231 campaign, I'm trying to find these locations:

Qishan/Mount Qi (祁山)
Shanggui (上邽)
Hanyang (漢陽)
Lucheng (鹵城)
Mumen (木門)

I think these are all the names of places, though I'm a little uncertain of Hanyang (漢陽).


I'll try to help you after the end of Portugal-Brazil.

EDIT:
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Red circle is Mount Qi, blue is Mumen, green is Shanggui, black is Tianshui/Hanyang.

Hanyang is Tianshui. Hanyang's story, if I'm not mistaken, goes like: In 187, 5th year of Zhongping Era, Hanyang commandery was divided and a new commandery created with Nan'an as seat. In 193, Li Jue's government further created another commandery from Hanyang's territory with head in Yongyang. In 220, Cao Pi renamed Hanyang to Tianshui.

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Red circle is Lucheng. It's right on the border of Bingzhou and Jizhou, miles and miles beyond Chang'an. I find it odd why it's related to Zhuge Liang's campaigns. But there you go. :)
Last edited by Jolt on Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Jolt » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:02 am

Done.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby capnnerefir » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:15 am

Thanks a lot. That's pretty helpful for figuring some things out. I'm trying to piece together an accurate version of events and knowing where things are is infinitely helpful.

The Lucheng thing definitely confuses me. ZZTJ says, "When Zhuge Liang withdrew, Sima Yi and his men pursued Zhuge Liang from the rear until they reached Lucheng." The account in the ZZTJ mostly comes from Xi Zuochi's Han Jin Chun Qiu, which I really don't like to rely on. But when trying to translate the version of events in Sima Yi's Jinshu biography, I came across the phrase "...亮退,追至祁山。亮屯鹵城..." I could be badly mistaken, but I read that as "...[Zhuge] Liang retreated, was pursued to Mount Qi. [Zhuge] Liang stationed at Lucheng..."

The Lucheng we know of (which appears to be the same as the characters given by the Jinshu) isn't anywhere near the campaign area. Something about that can't be right.

The other information I have on the campaign (translated by much more qualified people) are as follows:

Zhuge Liang SGZ
In the ninth year [231], Zhuge Liang marched out from Qishan once more. He used ‘wooden oxen’ [one-wheel carts] to transport grain but after provisions were exhausted the army retreated. He battled the Wei general Zhang He and killed him with arrows.

Zhang He SGZ
Zhuge Liang again attacked via Qi Shan. Zhang He was ordered west towards Lueyang while Zhuge Liang returned to protect Qi Shan. Zhang He pursued up to Mu Men where he battled Zhuge Liang’s army. [Zhang He] was hit by a flying arrow in the right knee and died.

Guo Huai SGZ
In the 5th year [231] Shu again came out to Lucheng. At that time they did not control Langyu valley. He desired to use this for transporting supplies. [Guo] Huai used his power and his kindness to convince the Qiang and Hu tribes to let him go through there. They allowed his transports and the army had sufficient supplies.

Li Yan SGZ
In the Spring of the 9th year (AD 231), Zhuge Liang attacked Qi Shan; Li Yan stayed behind and took charge of transporting food supplies. As it was the transition period between autumn and summer, the rain fell heavily, and Li Yan feared that he could not transport the supplies successfully. He sent Hu Zhong and Cheng Fan to order Zhuge Liang to retreat in the name of the Sovereign; Zhuge Liang withdrew complying with the order.

While I'm at it, it might be good to know where Langyu valley and Lueyang are. Unfortunately, I don't have characters for either location.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Jolt » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:04 am

The valley is called Longyou rather than Langyu. The map doesn't show valleys unfortunately.

Lueyang however, is composed of these characters: 略阳

You should find them easily enough in the map, they are to the North-East of Tianshui, on the border of the adjacent commandery:

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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:25 am

Jolt, DragonAtma, you guys are scholars and gents. Thanks very much for your help! :D
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:09 am

A collection of city names in the US, courtesy of wikipedia:

Eureka, California, the largest US city named Eureka
Eureka, Colorado
Eureka, Nevada County, California
Eureka, Illinois
Eureka, Indiana
Eureka, Florida
Eureka, Kansas
Eureka, Kentucky
Eureka, Louisiana
Eureka, Missouri
Eureka, Montana
Eureka, Nevada
Eureka, North Carolina
Eureka, Pennsylvania
Eureka, South Dakota
Eureka, Texas
Eureka, Utah
Eureka, Polk County, Wisconsin, a town
Eureka, Winnebago County, Wisconsin, an unincorporated community
Eureka Center, Minnesota, an unincorporated community
Eureka Center, Wisconsin, an unincorporated community
Eureka County, Nevada
Eureka Springs, Arkansas
Eureka Township, Adair County, Iowa
Eureka Township, Michigan
Eureka Township, Dakota County, Minnesota
Eureka Township, Valley County, Nebraska
Eureka Valley (Inyo County), California
Eureka Valley, San Francisco, California, a neighborhood

So I have a feeling there was another Lucheng -- or something similar to Lucheng (see yesterday's chengche/chengshe!) somewhere around Tianshui! ;)

Unfortunately, it may have been renamed since then -- and if it shrunk enough, it may not be recorded anywhere, not even in wikipedia. :/
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Jolt » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:41 am

Since de Crespigny's maps were quite antiquated, here's a map done by an internet acquaintance of mine and fellow Three Kingdoms fan, user "Fornadan" from Paradox forums. The map was essentially done by him with some input of mine. We have another map with more realistic actual Han control (So it doesn't show huge swaths of Yang under one commandery but actually the locations with confirmed county locations, and taking into account things like mountain ranges, marshes, etc.), but it still has some problems and needs some corrections. And it actually has the ancient shoreline! :)

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Last edited by Jolt on Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:14 am

That's a very nice bit of work there. This will definitely come in handy for all sorts of things. Thank you so much.
I also wouldn't mind the version with actual Han control.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:22 am

You don't know how much I love you right now!
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:15 pm

Aha! A while back I started doing work on something similar, but I could only find reasonable borders for about half the provinces (You, Ji, Qing, Xu, Yan, Yang, and Sili).

You missed a label in Ji -- the one under the J of Ji is Julu commandery -- but still, this is a very useful map!
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