Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:10 am

Best would be to fire up Ye Olde RoTK8; they have scenarios for every year from 184 to 234.

It's not 100% perfect, of course (plus it's limited to 50 distinct sections of china, plus they ignored Jiaozhi), but it's better than nothing.

Of course, we the SoSZers could collaborate and come up with this for KMA, but that'll take some time...
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Jadeklore » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:28 am

Also, having looked at a map of where each ruler ruled, I'm a little confused.
Here's the map;
https://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/b ... /map02.pdf
Now, I was wondering about Yu. Is Shouchun the capital of Yu, with Yuan Shu ruling it? Or is Xu the capital, and Shouchun belongs to another province? Is it saying Cao Cao rules Yu or Yan (I assume it's Yan, because he won the battle of Guandu in Yan. Also, what is the strip of land between Yi and Yu? Is that part of Yi, and the line seemingly partionining it a river? That would make sense, because it's leading to Red Cliff.
All stuff I'm kinda assuming, but the map isn't quite clear enough to make me 100%. Might all seem stupid, but I've never really looked at maps to visual the story, so I just wanna make sure I'm right.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:21 pm

The provincial borders are the thick line-with-dots: ____.____.____.

Shouchun is part of Yang (and, indeed, was the capital of Yang province). Yu's capital was quite likely Xu (aka Xuchang).

That strip of land between Yu and Yi was the northern part of Jing province; here, use this for province borders:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5720/mapcrespignycolored.png

Do keep in mind that the exact borders vary over time. Also Wudu (northwestern Yi) may have been part of Liang, not Yi.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Jadeklore » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:13 pm

DragonAtma wrote:The provincial borders are the thick line-with-dots: ____.____.____.

Shouchun is part of Yang (and, indeed, was the capital of Yang province). Yu's capital was quite likely Xu (aka Xuchang).

That strip of land between Yu and Yi was the northern part of Jing province; here, use this for province borders:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5720/mapcrespignycolored.png

Do keep in mind that the exact borders vary over time. Also Wudu (northwestern Yi) may have been part of Liang, not Yi.

Thanks.
I also just noticed that in a few of the maps, the territory that is described as Jiao here http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5720 ... olored.png
Is partitioned as Kuang and Chiao in another map. Is this conflicting ideas about territory, or did that territory partition/unify over time? Also, does Chiao count as Wu territory, or is it in Shu?
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:04 pm

Jadeklore wrote:Thanks.
I also just noticed that in a few of the maps, the territory that is described as Jiao here http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5720 ... olored.png
Is partitioned as Kuang and Chiao in another map. Is this conflicting ideas about territory, or did that territory partition/unify over time? Also, does Chiao count as Wu territory, or is it in Shu?


The Jiao territory is a little complicated.

Under the Han, it was not its own province, though the Inspector of Jiao had special authority due to the territory's distance from the government.

Under Sun Quan, Jiao became a proper province, divided into seven commanderies: Jiaozhi, Jiuzhen, Jinan, Canwu, Hanhai, Yulin, and Hepu.

At various times, the province was divided in half, with Jiaozhi, Jiuzhen, and Jinan constituting Jiao Province while Cangwu, Nanhai, Yulin, and Hepu became Guang Province.

Kuang = Guang, Chiao = Jiao

The provinces of Guang and Jiao were reunited and divided several times throughout Wu's history.

After the destruction of Shu, the Jin Dynasty did assume control of some territory in the region, though at the moment I do not remember quite what they controlled. For the most part, though, it was Wu's territory. Shu did not, as far as I can remember, ever hold any control in that region.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:07 pm

Shi Xie ran the Jiaozhi region from the 180s until 226; his family members controlled several of the commanderies. In 210, Sun Quan sent Bu Zhi to the area; Shi Xie formally submitted to him, and remained governor of Jiaozhi. When Shi Xie died in 226 (at the age of 89), Sun Quan split Jiaozhi into two provinces; Hepu, Yulin, Cangwu, and became Guang province, while Jiaozhi, Jiuzhen, and Rinan commanderies remained as Jiao province.

Keep in mind that until 226, Jiaozhi was basically a territory (think of the western US back in the 1800's), not a full province.

And no, that's not the only province rearranging. Cao Cao, for example rearranged china in 213: https://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/b ... /map20.pdf (and no, the people of Jiaozhi didn't recognize Cao Cao's decision to eliminate the region).
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:04 pm

So first of all thank you for all the help in this thread.

I'm researching the YT campaign, especially the battles against Bo Cai. I can see where you've put down on the YT map where Bo Cai was (in the Yu province as I expected) and that is really useful. However according to the wiki page pluged is putting together the battles happened at the cities of Yangdi and Changche. Looking at other maps for the period I can't find those cities in the province. Could anyone pin point for me where those cities are or give me alternative names (preferably using this map: http://www.oocities.org/zhaoyun9334/ROT3Kmap.html )?
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:58 pm

While useful, that map is not 100% accurate; in 2013 the Huai river, for example, flows into Lake Hongze and then from there to the Yangtze. But back in the three kingdoms period, it kept going east(ish) and flowed into the ocean.

As for city locations, I don't have the exact locations of them. I've noticed, however:

* Qin is recorded as capturing the city of Yangdi when it conquered Han in 203; the map of Han is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EN-HAN260BCE.jpg
On the map you gave, Han's borders are approximately the area from Tong pass (Yellow/Wei river split) east up the river to Guandu, southeast along the Yin River to the fork just left of the Y in "Yin river", west along the river to Yuzhou/Runan, west to Jingzhou/Nanyang/Wancheng, west to the northern tip of Si river, and northwest back to Tong Pass. My best guess? Yangdi is an alternate name for Han's capital Yangzhai (which would eventually be renamed Xuchang).

Changche is easier; it's reported elsewhere as the city of Changshe, which is just next to Xuchang (and is the modern city Changge).

Remember, city names are common when you have these many centuries pass. Don't bother looking for You Zhou/Fan Yang on a modern map, for example... unless you use its current name, "Beijing"! XD

Also I'd like to point out that for cities with two names (Yu Zhou/Ru Nan, Qing Zhou/Lin Zi, etc.), the "___ Zhou" part translates into "___ province" -- so Linzi is in Qing province, Runan is in Yu province, etc. For cities with three names (such as Jingzhou/Nanyang/Wancheng), they also included the commandery -- Wancheng is in Nanyang commandery and Jing province.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby Jolt » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:01 pm

Sun Fin wrote:So first of all thank you for all the help in this thread.

I'm researching the YT campaign, especially the battles against Bo Cai. I can see where you've put down on the YT map where Bo Cai was (in the Yu province as I expected) and that is really useful. However according to the wiki page pluged is putting together the battles happened at the cities of Yangdi and Changche. Looking at other maps for the period I can't find those cities in the province. Could anyone pin point for me where those cities are or give me alternative names (preferably using this map: http://www.oocities.org/zhaoyun9334/ROT3Kmap.html )?


I'll find them in a pinch, I think. One sec.

EDIT:
Image
Bigger image here.
Red circle denotes Yingchuan in three bigger black characters and Yangdi to its right. By its location, I would imagine it's a suburb of Yingchuan (The later Xuchang). Possibly on the other side of the Ying river.
The green circle (And the blue point inside it) denote Changshe's location.
Both are located inside Yingchuan commandery (Commandery borders are denoted by the purple lines).
On the upper right, image shows which map of an area of China I'm looking at, and the yellow rectangle shows where I am zoomed in, in the map.
My measuring scale shows that Yingchuan and Changshe are around 45 kms apart.

Black characters and blue points indicate settlements and locations from Eastern Han's time. Everything in brown indicates modern-day locations, names, etc.
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Re: Map of Han/Three Kingdoms China?

Unread postby capnnerefir » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:43 am

Researching Zhuge Liang's 231 campaign, I'm trying to find these locations:

Qishan/Mount Qi (祁山)
Shanggui (上邽)
Hanyang (漢陽)
Lucheng (鹵城)
Mumen (木門)

I think these are all the names of places, though I'm a little uncertain of Hanyang (漢陽).
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