Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

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Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Shuyouryo » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:20 pm

This is one of the most consistantly defeated guys in the SGYY, yet where most other generals go home like a whipped dog after being defeated, this guy hangs around to proceeds to be "soundly defeated many times" while sending a message back that says "Help! Send aid!".

Here is a summary of all the thing he's done in the novel:
Chap 5: Joins Cao Cao
Chap 6: Battle of Xingyang - Defeated by Xu Rong (attacker); Saves Cao Cao
Chap 11: Defeated at Puyang by Zhang Liao and Zang Ba (attacker)
Chap 12: Stalemate at Puyang; Slays He Man at Yangshan
Chap 14: Escorts Emperor Xian
Chap 17: Defeated at Nanyang & Jiangling by Zhang Xiu (defender)
Chap 22: Delivers Yuan Shao's manifesto to Cao Cao
Chap 24: Appointed command of Imperial Guard to "protect" Emperor Xian
Chap 26: Defeated at Runan by Liu Pi & Gong Du (uprising)
Chap 30: Battle of Guandu - Defeated by Yuan Shao (attacker); Defeated Zhang He & Gao Lan (defender)
Chap 31: Battle of Guandu - Defeated Yuan Shao (attacker); left in command of garrison at Guandu
Chap 32: Command of garrison at Guandu; Siege of Yejun - Stalemate vs Shen Pei & Chen Lin
Chap 33: Defeats & slays Yuan Tan at Pingyuan
Chap 40: Ambushed and defeated at Xinye vs Zhao Yun, Mi Fang, Liu Feng, Zhang Fei
Chap 41: Reports defeat to Cao Cao, Cao Hong vs Zhao Yun: Zhao Yun escapes
Chap 50: Command of garrisons at Yiling & Jiangling
Chap 51: Defeated by Gan Ning at Yiling, Defeated by Han Dang at Yiling, Victory at Nanjun vs Zhou Yu
Chap 56: Participated (co-winner) of archery contest
Chap 57: Defeats Ma Teng in ambush at Xuchang
Chap 58: Battle at Tong Pass - Defeated by Ma chao, Ma Dai, Pang De; almost executed by Cao Cao; fights 50 bouts with Ma Chao
Chap 59: Delivers false message to Han Sui
Chap 61: Command of thirty thousand reconnaissance troops
Chap 69: Command of fifty thousand troops at East River Land; Defeats Ren Kui, Withdraws to Nanzheng
Chap 70: Garrisons at Nanzheng
Chap 71: Renforced by Cao Cao
Chap 78: One of four advisors to receive Cao Cao's will
Chap 80: Aids in the Cao Pi's usurpation of the throne

Crowning moment of glory: fights 50 bouts with Ma Chao

He seems to lead a very light fast force (light cavalry or mounted infantry) as he is always one of the first to arrive, and in another situation sent for reconnaissance, and the one who delivers Yuan Shao's manifesto. If so then the huge string of defeats begin to make more sense. However this sort of force isn't really suited for defense or garrisoning - which is a duty he seems to do a lot of.

What do you guys think?
Last edited by Shuyouryo on Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cao Ang - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Tarrot » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:01 pm

You mean Cao Hong, right? Cao Ang is Cao Cao's son who gives his horse to Cao Cao so he can escape Zhang Xiu and dies. Cao Hong is actually more fun in history. One time he refused to give Cao Pi a loan, so Cao Pi arrested and threatened to execute him, but contented himself to stripping him of his ranks, which were restored when Cao Rui took the throne.
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Shuyouryo » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:41 am

Yeah for some reason I just typed that wrong sorry its Cao Hong not Cao Ang. Edited to clarify.
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:38 am

I'm wondering if part of his novel suckage as to make people think of Cao Cao using nepotism rather then ability whereas no Shu relative that is used will be a bad choice (other then Liu Shan). Cao Hong does get his moments, the Xu Rong rescue and the redeeming himself at Tong Gate but I like the cockroach idea.
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby ROTKobsessed » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:38 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm wondering if part of his novel suckage as to make people think of Cao Cao using nepotism rather then ability whereas no Shu relative that is used will be a bad choice (other then Liu Shan). Cao Hong does get his moments, the Xu Rong rescue and the redeeming himself at Tong Gate but I like the cockroach idea.


what relatives other than Liu Shan did Liu Bei have to use? Cao Cao has cousins (Cao and Xiahou) as well as other relatives (cao chun, cao zhen, cao xiu etc) and plenty of children - as far as i'm aware, Liu Bei only had 1 son and an adopted son.
He uses his adopted son Liu Feng but the novel highlights the fact it was a bad choice after Guan Yu's death
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:28 pm

My point was more, we don't get novel Xiahou Mao's in Shu. Zhuge Zhan is wise and virtuous, Guan Xing and Zhang Bao are valiant warriors and so on. Other then the Emperor, where hand is forced, does Shu do nepotism whereas novel Cao Cao and successors are guilty of it.
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:04 am

11 The Latter Ruler had seven sons in all---Liu Rui, Liu Dao, Liu Zhong, Liu Zan, Liu Chan, Liu Xue, and Liu Ju. But the ablest, and the only one above the common level of people, was this Liu Chan.


--chapter 118, as Liu Shan surrenders to Wei.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

In memory of my beloved cats, Anastasia (9/30/06-9/18/17, illness) and Josephine (1/19/06-9/23/17, cancer).
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:07 am

and how many of them get army ranks or key posts in comparison to the Xiahou Mao's?
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:59 pm

But...he kills HE MAN! Killing Yuan Tan was decently impressive too.

Cao Ren had his fair share of defeats as well.
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Re: Cao Hong - Cockroach of Wei

Unread postby Cao Chao » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:55 am

The novel's portrayal seems to paint Cao Hong as a mediocre general whose only redeeming feature is his familial loyalty and the fact that he saved Cao Cao's life twice. I think that rather than nepotism, the reason behind Cao Hong's cockroachness was primarily because Cao Cao began by counting on his family's support, his grandfather's eunuch-ness, his father's money, and the support of his four cousins (Dun, Hong, Ren, and Yuan).

If you really want nepotism in Cao Wei, I'd argue that Cao Anmin and many of the lesser Xiahous (De, En, etc.) are probably the only real ones (the others at least had some ability).
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