The Emperor, or the Ten Attendants?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Which was more directly responsible for Han demise?

Eunuchs corrupting power in the court.
8
44%
Empire restoring ability to have personal armies.
6
33%
Other...please explain.
4
22%
 
Total votes : 18

The Emperor, or the Ten Attendants?

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:17 am

To clarify the subject somewhat, what I really would like to settle on is which of the two above mentioned entities were more responsible for the demise of the Han. For starters, I read somewhere a couple days ago (can't remember where, sorry) that one of the latter Emperors restored authority to Governors to build and maintain local armed forces, which were directly responsible to the local Governor. The source (if it's one of you guys, sorry if I mess up) said something to the effect that once this power was given, it basically took the power of the military out of the Emperors hand and gave it to the local chieftains, which decentralized power and led to the many warring factions in the Empire. In light of that, I know that it's believed by many (myself included) that the eunuchs' power in the court and their ability to influence the Emperor was the downfall of the Han...so which do you think it was? Feel free to debate, if it comes to that.
"Armed and dangerous, ain't too many can hang wit us
straight up weed no angel dust, label us Notorious..."--Biggie
User avatar
Iznoach, Legendary Dragon
Gunslinger
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 7:28 am
Location: French Landing, WI

Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:21 am

Well, if you really want to be technical it was the Empress Dowager's(from way back) controlling the court. They took power from the emperor, and placed their families in positions of power. They kept putting child emperors on the throne, and eventually one emperor decided to fight back. He enlisted the aid of the eunuchs, and well, his children trusted the eunuchs too much.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:29 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Well, if you really want to be technical it was the Empress Dowager's(from way back) controlling the court. They took power from the emperor, and placed their families in positions of power. They kept putting child emperors on the throne, and eventually one emperor decided to fight back. He enlisted the aid of the eunuchs, and well, his children trusted the eunuchs too much.


True, but even though the Empress' may have put their families in positions of local authority (magistrates, prefects, inspectors, etc.), they still were responsible to the centralized government when it came to military matters. It wasn't until around the 170's/180's that the authority to oversee military matters was given directly to the local authorities. Coincidence?
"Armed and dangerous, ain't too many can hang wit us
straight up weed no angel dust, label us Notorious..."--Biggie
User avatar
Iznoach, Legendary Dragon
Gunslinger
 
Posts: 1674
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 7:28 am
Location: French Landing, WI

Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 8:12 am

Iznoach wrote:True, but even though the Empress' may have put their families in positions of local authority (magistrates, prefects, inspectors, etc.), they still were responsible to the centralized government when it came to military matters. It wasn't until around the 170's/180's that the authority to oversee military matters was given directly to the local authorities. Coincidence?


To be honest, I think it's just coincidence. Every country that has been a monarchy has given the nobility the right to have private armies, and it's rarely caused problems. Besides, if you really wanted a private army you could just get yourself some mercs.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Starscream » Sat Nov 23, 2002 12:58 am

The dispersal of military power in the later Han period is not surprising, since some of the later Han emperors ascended the throne as children. They needed the trusted noble families to help them manage state affairs temporarily till they came to an age whereby they can rule for themselves. I think that's how families like Yuan Shao's became so powerful. Eunuchs and empresses are just short-term problems, lasting for at most 2 generations, hence the most they could do is to let the dying empire collapse that's all, but the major blow for the empire comes in the loss of the emperor's ability to rule. Usually it's the policy of a weak emperor passed down to other emperors unchanged and the accumulation of several serious policy mistakes that leads to the collapse of an empire.
”太慢了。“
User avatar
Starscream
Decepticon Air Commander
 
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:36 am
Location: Lost in space

Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:03 am

Cai Yan wrote:Eunuchs and empresses are just short-term problems, lasting for at most 2 generations.


Wrongo. 5 generations for empress dowagers(who kept putting those child emperors on the throne), and 4 for the eunuchs.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Starscream » Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:11 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Wrongo. 5 generations for empress dowagers(who kept putting those child emperors on the throne), and 4 for the eunuchs.


Okay, maybe longer as you said. But I believe that decisive and assertive emperors should not be burdened by such. An example would be Qin Shi Huang, his mother and uncle Lu Buwei ruled his state for him and they were disposed of later by Qin Shi Huang himself, the reason being that he did not want to rule under their shadows. In the end, he became the first emperor of China.
”太慢了。“
User avatar
Starscream
Decepticon Air Commander
 
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:36 am
Location: Lost in space

Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:31 pm

Cai Yan wrote:Okay, maybe longer as you said. But I believe that decisive and assertive emperors should not be burdened by such. An example would be Qin Shi Huang, his mother and uncle Lu Buwei ruled his state for him and they were disposed of later by Qin Shi Huang himself, the reason being that he did not want to rule under their shadows. In the end, he became the first emperor of China.


Yeah, but that man was uncommonly skilled. Emperor's, King's, and whatever else ruler's that got to the throne as a child frequently found that they had no power when they were old enough to rule. Doesn't mean they wanted it that way, just that they weren't skilled enough, or the man(or woman) running things was far to skilled, for them to do anything about it.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby Starscream » Sat Nov 23, 2002 6:51 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Yeah, but that man was uncommonly skilled.


How was he different from any other child emperor when he was born? Correction, he was not even an emperor when he was born, he was a son of a major feudal lord. Thus, it shows that he was not born in a period of peace, but of unrest. Unlike the rest of the child emperors. But he was not born with supernatural powers to rule or something, what he had that they lacked was assertiveness and a strong sense of control. Skilled or not is a matter of nurture, not nature. Qin Shi Huang did not like his mother or his uncle Lu to boss over him, hence he disposed of them, even though they were holding power.
”太慢了。“
User avatar
Starscream
Decepticon Air Commander
 
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:36 am
Location: Lost in space

Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:11 pm

Cai Yan wrote:How was he different from any other child emperor when he was born? Correction, he was not even an emperor when he was born, he was a son of a major feudal lord. Thus, it shows that he was not born in a period of peace, but of unrest. Unlike the rest of the child emperors. But he was not born with supernatural powers to rule or something, what he had that they lacked was assertiveness and a strong sense of control. Skilled or not is a matter of nurture, not nature. Qin Shi Huang did not like his mother or his uncle Lu to boss over him, hence he disposed of them, even though they were holding power.


And I can name others who have tried and failed to do the same(Emperor Xian springs to mind, twice he tried and failed to eliminate Cao Cao).
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved