What would you do if you are Xun Yu?

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What would you do if you are Xun Yu?

Unread postby CK » Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:40 pm

Would you continue serving Cao Cao and disregard the emperor, or would you follow his footsteps in history? Why do you think did he choose the path he chose?
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:05 pm

I would be absoleutly loyal to Cao Cao. I don't see the point in being loyal to a destroyed dynasty like Han. There was no reason for Xun Yu to want to support the Emperor instead of Cao Cao who had done so much for him.
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Unread postby James » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:36 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:I would be absoleutly loyal to Cao Cao. I don't see the point in being loyal to a destroyed dynasty like Han. There was no reason for Xun Yu to want to support the Emperor instead of Cao Cao who had done so much for him.

What do you mean exactly? Sure, Cao Cao's new followers, for the most part, had every reason to be loyal to him over the Han, but the servants of the Han had no reason to be loyal to Cao Cao. Just like the followers of Wei had no reason to be loyal to Jin, but the new followers of Jin had no good reason to be loyal to Wei.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:45 pm

I don't remember Xun Yu ever serving the Emperor of Han and since I think the Han was basically extinct since Dong Zhuo's times, What is the point of serving Xian? Xun Yu had been treated extremely well by Cao Cao and had more reason to be loyal to him than the Han which had done nothing for him individually. I can see him being loyal to the Han if he was actually a Han officer before the Yellow Scarves rebellion and had personally been a member of the Han Emperor's court but I don't believe he was. He never served Han, so why be loyal to it?
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Unread postby James » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:51 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:I don't remember Xun Yu ever serving the Emperor of Han and since I think the Han was basically extinct since Dong Zhuo's times, What is the point of serving Xian? Xun Yu had been treated extremely well by Cao Cao and had more reason to be loyal to him than the Han which had done nothing for him individually. I can see him being loyal to the Han if he was actually a Han officer before the Yellow Scarves rebellion and had personally been a member of the Han Emperor's court but I don't believe he was. He never served Han, so why be loyal to it?

Okay, I was just wondering if you were speaking in general terms, or if you were speaking specifically about Xun Yu. Xun Yu had every reason to be loyal to Wei, I agree.
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:03 pm

I don't think its possible to speak in general terms when it comes to loyalty. Everyone has a reason for what they do. Ji Ping had served Han and so he was loyal to it and therefore wanted to get rid of Cao Cao. Just because he served Cao Cao doesn't mean his loyalty was with him. What's a true shame is that there weren't enough people like that in Later Wei. It seems like most Wei officers just sat back and allowed the Sima Family to usurp the government. Even though they had been treated well by Wei they willingly served Jin and that's just not right. The same thing goes for many Shu and Wu officer's who simply gave up and loyally served Jin after their kingdoms defeat.
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Unread postby Anshi » Sun Jun 23, 2002 9:38 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:What's a true shame is that there weren't enough people like that in Later Wei. It seems like most Wei officers just sat back and allowed the Sima Family to usurp the government. Even though they had been treated well by Wei they willingly served Jin and that's just not right. The same thing goes for many Shu and Wu officer's who simply gave up and loyally served Jin after their kingdoms defeat.


I have to disagree with you. What Sima Shi and Sima Zhao did was not a whole lot different from what Wei did to Jin. Deng Ai and Zhong Hui were both personally recruited by and served directly under Sima Yi, who was a loyal servant of Wei. Now, when Sima Shi gets the idea to usurp the government after their father's death, it only makes sense that Deng Ai and Zhong Hui serve under him.
As far as the other kingdoms are concerned, if you surrender to someone fair and square and then try to rebel against them, you deserve to be hacked to pieces like Jiang Wei.
Also, I would prefer if this thread stayed on-topic, however I would not mind a new thread pertaining to this subject at all.

As far as Xun Yu is concerned, if he really considers himself a loyal Han subject he is out of place in China since there is no one left who serves the Han with true loyalty (with the possible exception of Liu Zhang), he might as well just kill himself (which is what he ended up doing).
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Unread postby Zhang Liao17 » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:02 am

Two guys aren't gonna change the situation. Not everyone in Wei was recruited by the Sima family but they all sat back and let it happen. Jia Kui was loyal to Wei but his son Jia Chong became Sima Zhao's right hand man. There were many who were unloyal and changed kingdoms because of it.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:21 am

Zhang Liao17 wrote:I don't remember Xun Yu ever serving the Emperor of Han and since I think the Han was basically extinct since Dong Zhuo's times, What is the point of serving Xian? Xun Yu had been treated extremely well by Cao Cao and had more reason to be loyal to him than the Han which had done nothing for him individually. I can see him being loyal to the Han if he was actually a Han officer before the Yellow Scarves rebellion and had personally been a member of the Han Emperor's court but I don't believe he was. He never served Han, so why be loyal to it?


From what I know, Emperor Xian was very good at civil affair. Xun Yu grown to like and respected Emperor Xian when Xun Yu was left incharge with the affair at the capital...
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Unread postby Chen Zhen » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:00 pm

hah...!! i would go and serve Liu Bei!!!!!
reason: i just don't like Cao Cao :)
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