What should Yuan Shao have done?

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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby Fornadan » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:44 pm

ky9ersfan wrote:
Fornadan wrote:Harbouring a maverick mercenary like Lü Bu to use against your own junior ally doesn't seem like a very rational thing to do

Cao Cao was not just any junior ally, he was "the hero in times of chaos". Who better to know his skillset then Yuan Shao? .....and the potential threat that he posed. Better to kill the tiger while it is still young, then wait for it to grow claws.

Isn't this pure hindsight on your part? How could Yuan Shao have known in 193 that Cao Cao would become his biggest threat?

And even if he had known, going to war against Cao Cao in 193 is not necessarily a good idea
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:02 pm

Fornadan wrote:
ky9ersfan wrote:
Fornadan wrote:Harbouring a maverick mercenary like Lü Bu to use against your own junior ally doesn't seem like a very rational thing to do

Cao Cao was not just any junior ally, he was "the hero in times of chaos". Who better to know his skillset then Yuan Shao? .....and the potential threat that he posed. Better to kill the tiger while it is still young, then wait for it to grow claws.

Isn't this pure hindsight on your part? How could Yuan Shao have known in 193 that Cao Cao would become his biggest threat?

And even if he had known, going to war against Cao Cao in 193 is not necessarily a good idea

Well I read stories that they were friends, or acquaintances as younger guys, I was just speculating that if that was true. Then Yuan Shao would've known Cao Cao better than most, that Cao was a man of many talents, and a potential threat. And therefore using Lu Bu, as a vanguard against a common threat, wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea.
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:15 pm

Keep in mind that Cao Cao and Yuan Shao were friends who worked together; they only wound up opposing each other because they became China's two big names.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby One-Eye Wei » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:12 am

I don't think Lu Bu can be used as a weapon or tool by Yuan Shao. Bu has consistently demonstrated that he (and his forces) are powerful when directly applied, but lack the discipline to be held for surgical applications.

For Yuan Shao, I think his issue may have been his friendship with Cao Cao. When I consider the possible intimacy of their relationship (their proximity to He Jin, the revolt in the capital, the campaign against Dong Zhuo) I feel that may have had more influence on his hesitant military conduct towards Cao Cao. Also Cao Cao is hosting the Emperor. Failure to manage that public perception caused problem for other "Imperial Hosts".
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby greencactaur » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:13 am

I'm not as knowledgeable of the three kingdoms era as some of you, but i'd like to give my personal input. He had superior troops numbers, and more resources, so I feel like he had a huge advantage. He had the support from a lot of the other warlords as well if I remember (This may be a fictional thing). Cao Cao had 10,000 troops. Yuan had 100,000. If Yuan hadn't put a drunk in charge of Wu Chao than he would've forced Cao Cao to retreat. Also Yuan Shao i feel was a terrible leader! He may have lead the most powerful force during that time in China, but he didn't know which advisors to listen to, he chose his youngest as his successor, and finally he was indecisive! He was a real fool.

Oh I might be coming off as ignorant and not having any idea what I'm talking about, but this is just based off what I know of the Three Kingdoms, so if anyone as anything that they feel is incorrect, or any input please do tell :D.
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:59 pm

greencactaur wrote:I'm not as knowledgeable of the three kingdoms era as some of you, but i'd like to give my personal input. He had superior troops numbers, and more resources, so I feel like he had a huge advantage. He had the support from a lot of the other warlords as well if I remember (This may be a fictional thing). Cao Cao had 10,000 troops. Yuan had 100,000. If Yuan hadn't put a drunk in charge of Wu Chao than he would've forced Cao Cao to retreat. Also Yuan Shao i feel was a terrible leader! He may have lead the most powerful force during that time in China, but he didn't know which advisors to listen to, he chose his youngest as his successor, and finally he was indecisive! He was a real fool.

Oh I might be coming off as ignorant and not having any idea what I'm talking about, but this is just based off what I know of the Three Kingdoms, so if anyone as anything that they feel is incorrect, or any input please do tell :D.


While Yuan Shao had the troop advantage, it was not that much given Cao Cao could match the length of camp. Chunyu Qiong was not a drunk but a famous commander in his day and Cao Cao wanted to recruit him after the defeat then realized might be too late after mutilating him. In terms of allies, not by Guan Du but yes he did form effective alliances in the vs Gongsun Zan days.

Yuan Shao created his powerful army though. Remember he started as a well connected figure but a subordinate to Han Fu admist many other warlords in the north. Yes by the end he made mistakes, possibly losing his touch, but he was an accomplished warlord and had a fine career, he was no fool.

I though ky9ersfan had replied afterwards?
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:41 am

I did but I changed my mind, and as such withdrew and deleted my earlier posts.
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:07 am

Fair enough
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby greencactaur » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:48 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
greencactaur wrote:I'm not as knowledgeable of the three kingdoms era as some of you, but i'd like to give my personal input. He had superior troops numbers, and more resources, so I feel like he had a huge advantage. He had the support from a lot of the other warlords as well if I remember (This may be a fictional thing). Cao Cao had 10,000 troops. Yuan had 100,000. If Yuan hadn't put a drunk in charge of Wu Chao than he would've forced Cao Cao to retreat. Also Yuan Shao i feel was a terrible leader! He may have lead the most powerful force during that time in China, but he didn't know which advisors to listen to, he chose his youngest as his successor, and finally he was indecisive! He was a real fool.

Oh I might be coming off as ignorant and not having any idea what I'm talking about, but this is just based off what I know of the Three Kingdoms, so if anyone as anything that they feel is incorrect, or any input please do tell :D.


While Yuan Shao had the troop advantage, it was not that much given Cao Cao could match the length of camp. Chunyu Qiong was not a drunk but a famous commander in his day and Cao Cao wanted to recruit him after the defeat then realized might be too late after mutilating him. In terms of allies, not by Guan Du but yes he did form effective alliances in the vs Gongsun Zan days.

Yuan Shao created his powerful army though. Remember he started as a well connected figure but a subordinate to Han Fu admist many other warlords in the north. Yes by the end he made mistakes, possibly losing his touch, but he was an accomplished warlord and had a fine career, he was no fool.

I though ky9ersfan had replied afterwards?


Oh I see, My knowledge of Yuan Shao is mainly based off the novel. I actually know little about him, other than he kind of loses his touch near the end of his career. I honestly think though, Yuan had a advantage, and he played his cards incorrectly which lead to his defeat.
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Re: What should Yuan Shao have done?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:53 pm

I think the novel plays down his younger glory and slightly overhypes the failings that led to his defeat but yes, he could have played his hand better.
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