Did Liu Bei and his generals have any talent?

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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:12 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:
Lady Wu wrote:His mom was really concerned with his education, as was his uncle. Though he was a bad student, not liking to study, but rather go hunting with dogs and horses, listen to music, and... um... getting nice clothes :shock: (I didn't make this up! It's in SGZ!!).


Couldn't of been too bad considered he became a good general.


I wouldn't say that Liu Bei was a good general. :D
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:37 am

Great Deer wrote:I wouldn't say that Liu Bei was a good general. :D


So tell me why not.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:41 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:
So tell me why not.

What are the qualities of a good general that Liu Bei had?
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:45 am

Great Deer wrote:What are the qualities of a good general that Liu Bei had?


Flexibility. Foresight. Good planning skills. Unfortunately he got arrogant in his old age.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:59 am

Lady Wu wrote:
Fan Kong wrote:I've heard anti-Shuists talk about how Liu Bei faked his descendancy? Or LGZ just made it up for SGYY........is this true?

I don't think it's faked, since SGZ also mentions that he's the descendant of so and so emperor. The thing is, it's been literally hundreds of years... Emperor Jing, from whom Liu Bei claimed his heritage, ruled in 156BC. Anti-shuist generally claim that such a distant relationship to the imperial house is not a big deal, and Liu Bei's just grabbing at straws there for a cause to summon men to himself.


Liu Bei related to the Han had about the same amount of truth as the Sun claimed themself to be decendent of Sun Tzu.

Cai Yan wrote:According to SGZ, Liu Bei did have imperial relations as one of his ancestors was a son of Han Jing Di, the fourth Emperor of Han Dynasty. Xian Di was the twelve emperor, so the relation between Liu Bei and Xian Di is neither near nor far... :?:

:lol: I hate to be the one that corrected you, but Han Jing Di was the 4th emperor of the Early Han (or Western Han), Xian Di is the 12th emperor of the Later Han (or Eastern Han)... It about 20 generations between Liu Bei and the Royal line. Very convient for Liu Bei to claim such ancestry without a single thing to prove it.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:09 am

Han Xin wrote:Liu Bei related to the Han had about the same amount of truth as the Sun claimed themself to be decendent of Sun Tzu.


And what do you have to back that up? Considering in SGZ it says he is descended from a Han emperor.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:09 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Flexibility. Foresight. Good planning skills. Unfortunately he got arrogant in his old age.


Those were more related to his political ability. A general is defined as a commissioned officer with the army or something in that direction. In which aspects of the military can you derive that Liu Bei had been flexible, had foresight or had good planning skills?

In his battle with Yuan Shu, he made the blunder by leaving Cao Bao at Xia Pi with Zhang Fei (when he could have dismissed Cao Bao altogether). In the end, Cao Bao was killed by Zhang Fei and Cao Bao's men called Lu Bu in. Liu Bei was defeated by Lu Bu but still he proceeded to attack Yuan Shu. He was defeated again.

Given his previous bad experience at Xu Zhou, Liu Bei chose to stick to Xia Pi, Xu Zhou once again, after he decided to rebel against Cao Cao. He killed Che Zhou and occupied Xu Zhou. Not long after, several prefectures in the north of Xu Zhou also rebelled against Cao Cao. Their total forces numbered several tens of thousands men. At that time, Cao Cao was hardpressed by Yuan Shao at Guan Du region and he could only dispatched Liu Dai and Wang Zhong to resist Liu Bei. Both were defeated. However, when Cao Cao hurriedly gather his troops to square off with Liu Bei personally, Liu Bei was defeated. Not only that. Cao Cao managed to capture Liu Bei's wives and Guan Yu as well. This showed clearly the extent of Liu Bei's defeat.

Finally, the battle at Yi Ling. Liu Bei started off nicely, with a highly concentrated force and great morale. However, he was lured by Lu Xun deep into Jing Zhou and eventually, his force was spread thinly along the regions that he captured. The morale factor became irrelevant when a protracted battle ensued. In the end, with some bad positioning of his command tent and such, Liu Bei's army suffered a crushing defeat by Lu Xun's fire attack. I don't think arrogance is the only factor for this battle.

Ok. Let's look at some positive sides. Bo Wang was an ambush against Xia Hou Dun. Not much was mentioned and it was only a minor confrontation with not much gain? Han Zhong was orchestrated by many people. Of cos, Liu Bei was the director and he was given the honor of having the final say,"Even if Cao Cao is here, Han Zhong will be mine." :lol:
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:17 am

Great Deer wrote:Those were more related to his political ability. A general is defined as a commissioned officer with the army or something in that direction. In which aspects of the military can you derive that Liu Bei had been flexible, had foresight or had good planning skills?


I'll get back to you on that.

Great Deer wrote:In his battle with Yuan Shu, he made the blunder by leaving Cao Bao at Xia Pi with Zhang Fei (when he could have dismissed Cao Bao altogether). In the end, Cao Bao was killed by Zhang Fei and Cao Bao's men called Lu Bu in. Liu Bei was defeated by Lu Bu but still he proceeded to attack Yuan Shu. He was defeated again.


How could he possibly of known that Cao Bao and Zhang Fei would come to that? Foresight only goes so far.

[quote = "Great Deer"]Given his previous bad experience at Xu Zhou, Liu Bei chose to stick to Xia Pi, Xu Zhou once again, after he decided to rebel against Cao Cao. He killed Che Zhou and occupied Xu Zhou. Not long after, several prefectures in the north of Xu Zhou also rebelled against Cao Cao. Their total forces numbered several tens of thousands men. At that time, Cao Cao was hardpressed by Yuan Shao at Guan Du region and he could only dispatched Liu Dai and Wang Zhong to resist Liu Bei. Both were defeated. However, when Cao Cao hurriedly gather his troops to square off with Liu Bei personally, Liu Bei was defeated. Not only that. Cao Cao managed to capture Liu Bei's wives and Guan Yu as well. This showed clearly the extent of Liu Bei's defeat.[/quote]

Surprise. I said good not best, but Cao Cao was one of the best, if not the best, commanders of the time.

Great Deer wrote:Finally, the battle at Yi Ling. Liu Bei started off nicely, with a highly concentrated force and great morale. However, he was lured by Lu Xun deep into Jing Zhou and eventually, his force was spread thinly along the regions that he captured. The morale factor became irrelevant when a protracted battle ensued. In the end, with some bad positioning of his command tent and such, Liu Bei's army suffered a crushing defeat by Lu Xun's fire attack. I don't think arrogance is the only factor for this battle.


It may not be the only factor, but it was by far the biggest factor in his defeat.

Great Deer wrote:Ok. Let's look at some positive sides. Bo Wang was an ambush against Xia Hou Dun. Not much was mentioned and it was only a minor confrontation with not much gain? Han Zhong was orchestrated by many people. Of cos, Liu Bei was the director and he was given the honor of having the final say,"Even if Cao Cao is here, Han Zhong will be mine." :lol:


Considering how outnumbered he was by Xiahou Dun, the fact that he was able to defeat him at all is quite impressive. And while there were many people involved in Han Zhong, Liu Bei was CIC, and was responsible for leading that campaign. There were many people involved in Guandu, Chibi, Tong Pass, etc. but the credit is ussually given to the commander.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:18 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:And what do you have to back that up? Considering in SGZ it says he is descended from a Han emperor.

SGZ also said that the Suns were decendent of Sun Tzu.

Anyway, does Liu Bei have anything to back up his claim? The only reference related to his "claim" to be related to the Han royalty which was written by Shu-Han historians which later compiled by a historian living during both 3 kingdom era and the Jin dynasty and keep refering to Liu Bei as "Former Lord".
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Unread postby Han Xin » Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:22 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Considering how outnumbered he was by Xiahou Dun, the fact that he was able to defeat him at all is quite impressive. And while there were many people involved in Han Zhong, Liu Bei was CIC, and was responsible for leading that campaign. There were many people involved in Guandu, Chibi, Tong Pass, etc. but the credit is ussually given to the commander.

Where were the troops account of XiaHou Dun and Liu Bei during BoWang Bo?
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