Did Liu Bei and his generals have any talent?

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Unread postby Starscream » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:11 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Which is wrong. Those relationships were considered quite valid in that time period. Going by today's standards is not the way to look at why he claimed to be a descendant.


The problem is that not everyone during that era seemed convinced with his claim and they only gave him the benefit of the doubt that he's an imperial descent. Imperial kinship during the end of Han Dynasty is almost like the present day monarchy in some countries, that is, there is prestige but no power. Liu Bei used this prestige to rally troops, but he needed to form his own power and establish his own state. He was not given Yi Zhou nor Jing Zhou by mere title alone, he had to fight for them.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:15 am

Cai Yan wrote:He was not given Yi Zhou nor Jing Zhou by mere title alone, he had to fight for them.

True, but his hide was saved earlier on only because Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, Liu Biao, etc took him in, based on his claim to imperial descent. He hadn't really accomplished enough for people to "give him face", if it weren't for his name.
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Unread postby Fan Kong » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:24 am

Ok, another one......people like to mention how Liu Bei went from a lowly mat weaver to Emperor of Shu-Han, and Guan Yu was selling green beans? and Zhang Fei was only a butcher.

So, did LGZ make up these "humble" beginnings? No matter what any anti-Shuist say, they did achieve a lot in their lives otherwise we wouldn't even be debating about them. It seems that those "humble" beginnings seem to humble for them to turn to the military generals they would become.
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Unread postby Starscream » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:24 am

Lady Wu wrote:True, but his hide was saved earlier on only because Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, Liu Biao, etc took him in, based on his claim to imperial descent. He hadn't really accomplished enough for people to "give him face", if it weren't for his name.


You're right on that point, let's look at things this way, Liu Bei's imperial line is like a good resume for job opportunities. Apparently, those people who took him in looked at his "resume" and the imperial line was the reason why they took him in. Besides Liu Bei, there must be some other imperial kins of the emperor but not one succeeded like Liu Bei. Why so? That's because they could not establish their own power like Liu Bei did. They just lived on their titles and died with their titles without any accomplishments. Liu Bei, like it or not, used his imperial line to get around in life. :twisted:

Am I talking in circles? :roll:
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:36 am

Fan Kong wrote:Ok, another one......people like to mention how Liu Bei went from a lowly mat weaver to Emperor of Shu-Han, and Guan Yu was selling green beans? and Zhang Fei was only a butcher.

The Guan Yu and Zhang Fei stories aren't recorded in SGZ, but I kinda like them anyway :) The two of them achieved what they did only because the tagged along with Liu Bei.

Cai Yan wrote:They just lived on their titles and died with their titles without any accomplishments. Liu Bei, like it or not, used his imperial line to get around in life.

That's true. Liu Bei cashed his lineage like no one else did. There's that Liu Yu in the north, and Yuan Shao even carved an imperial seal for him ready to go, but would he take it? No... Then there's Liu Biao and Liu Zhang, who didn't do much but sit in their territories. Compared to them Liu Bei is a high achiever.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:40 am

I think we must not underestimate Liu Bei's political ability. Note that in the beginning, he wasn't the most prominent among the Lius in China. However, none of the others attempted to leverage on their famous surname or their ancestry in their bids to fulfil their ambitions. Perhaps one may say that Liu Bei was not really good at war (Bowang was a simple ambush, Han Zhong was debatable). However, that alone does not mean that Liu Bei was incapable. He had sufficient foresights in all his northern exploits. Although some might look like complete failures, there were more reasons into it than merely incapability. :D
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Unread postby Fan Kong » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:44 am

so how did a simple mat weaver turn into the Emperor of Shu-Han? SGZ readers claim he was a warrior and general, unlike is SGYY personna, how did this come about from a man who was only a mat weaver?
I wouldn't think poor mat weavers could attend school and military training back then.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:58 am

Fan Kong wrote:so how did a simple mat weaver turn into the Emperor of Shu-Han? SGZ readers claim he was a warrior and general, unlike is SGYY personna, how did this come about from a man who was only a mat weaver?
I wouldn't think poor mat weavers could attend school and military training back then.


He was tutored by Lu Zhi.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:02 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:He was tutored by Lu Zhi.
His mom was really concerned with his education, as was his uncle. Though he was a bad student, not liking to study, but rather go hunting with dogs and horses, listen to music, and... um... getting nice clothes :shock: (I didn't make this up! It's in SGZ!!).
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 6:05 am

Lady Wu wrote:His mom was really concerned with his education, as was his uncle. Though he was a bad student, not liking to study, but rather go hunting with dogs and horses, listen to music, and... um... getting nice clothes :shock: (I didn't make this up! It's in SGZ!!).


Couldn't of been too bad considered he became a good general.
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