Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

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Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Strategist » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:03 am

In the novel (and, I'm given to understand, in history), Yuan Shao did not have much of a chance of taking control of the Emperor. Cao Cao was simply in the best posistion to do so.

In the TV adaptation in 2010, however, Yuan Shao has the opportunity to go to the Emperor's rescue and potentially take him. Xu You argues that the Emperor's usefulness is unlimited as he can be used to command the lords of the realm- Tian Feng argues it would be a burden as the Emperor may be assertive of his power (which is clearly wrong) but wants to take Bing and You (both under Gongsun Zan's control swiftly) in order to control the North.

The show tries to portray Xu You as being right (having Yuan Shao change his mind later), but I'm not so sure. Once Yuan Shao takes Gongsun Zan's lands he's able to raise 700,000 men- Cao Cao for all his expansion can only get 200,000. The lands near Yuan Shao are Bing/You (Gongsun Zan's and thus enemy), Yan(Cao Cao's- a cunning man who will find pretexts to ignore imperial commands easily), and Xu (controlled by Liu Bei, who is a more competent version of his ROTK interpretation, but soon after falling to Lu Bu.)

What do people here think?

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBNYM_75KU provides some insight on this question)
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:53 am

Strategist wrote:In the novel (and, I'm given to understand, in history), Yuan Shao did not have much of a chance of taking control of the Emperor. Cao Cao was simply in the best posistion to do so.

In the TV adaptation in 2010, however, Yuan Shao has the opportunity to go to the Emperor's rescue and potentially take him. Xu You argues that the Emperor's usefulness is unlimited as he can be used to command the lords of the realm- Tian Feng argues it would be a burden as the Emperor may be assertive of his power (which is clearly wrong) but wants to take Bing and You (both under Gongsun Zan's control swiftly) in order to control the North.

The show tries to portray Xu You as being right (having Yuan Shao change his mind later), but I'm not so sure. Once Yuan Shao takes Gongsun Zan's lands he's able to raise 700,000 men- Cao Cao for all his expansion can only get 200,000. The lands near Yuan Shao are Bing/You (Gongsun Zan's and thus enemy), Yan(Cao Cao's- a cunning man who will find pretexts to ignore imperial commands easily), and Xu (controlled by Liu Bei, who is a more competent version of his ROTK interpretation, but soon after falling to Lu Bu.)

What do people here think?

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBNYM_75KU provides some insight on this question)


In the novel I thought he did have a good opportunity once to take custody of the emperor and was advised to by someone though I can't recall who.
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:45 pm

I'm pretty sure in history, Yuan Shao could have attempted to take the emperor and Ju Shou wished it while others like Gou Tu argued against. Yuan Shao didn't change his mind, he might have even come Emperor himself before Guan Du if his soundings hadn't shown it to be a horrible idea.

I think both arguments had merit: Pro-rescue: see what Cao Cao did. Anti-rescue: see what a headache it caused Cao Cao. Yuan Shao probably wouldn't have been an able enough political player to get the best out of the Han factor had he taken Xian under his control.
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:56 pm

I stand by my opinion that Yuan Shao entered senility sometime between the ADZC and Guandu; I would not be surprised if he had at least mild senility by the time he ahd to decide whether to host the emperor or not.

And yeah, Guo Tu (and Chunyu Qiong) said no to taking in the emperor, while Ju Shou said yes.
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:17 pm

Nah, his defeat of Gongsun Zan and playing Han Fu didn't seem like the signs of a senile man. But by Guan Du, sure I guess.

Also I'm almost sure that given Ju Shou argued Yuan Shao should take the Emperor, he probably had a chance to. As if taking the Emperor and waging war against Gongsun Zan was an either/or thing. You can do both. Look how many wars Cao Cao fought in quick succession whilst recieving the Emperor.
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Strategist » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:14 am

In the adaptation, Tian Feng argued that it was a distraction- Cao Cao was rushing for the Emperor and might attempt to take him by force, which meant a significant distraction from the potential swift attack he advocated against Gongsun Zan.
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:44 am

Han Fu's land was taken in 190 or 191, just as the ADZC was winding down. Back then, Yuan Shao was still fine.

As for Gongsun Zan's defeat, that was from a huge error on his part, not Yuan Shao's skills.
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:13 am

DragonAtma wrote:Han Fu's land was taken in 190 or 191, just as the ADZC was winding down. Back then, Yuan Shao was still fine.

As for Gongsun Zan's defeat, that was from a huge error on his part, not Yuan Shao's skills.


Yuan Shao exploited every opportunity, won every battle, picked his generals wisely, followed Ju Shou's plan and was able to lay siege to then breach one very strong fortress at the end. For all Zan's mistakes and incompetence, Yuan Shao also won becuase he was a skilled leader
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:35 am

It seems like a lot of definitive Three Kingdom match ups could be defined as: the new beats the old.

Cao Cao defeats Yuan Shao
Zhou Yu defeats Cao Cao
Lu Meng defeats Guan Yu
Lu Xun defeats Liu Bei

etc etc.
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Re: Three Kingdoms(2010) Adaptation- On Yuan Shao

Unread postby Strategist » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:48 am

Cao Cao v.s Yuan Shao was old v.s new in the sense of 'new order', and Lu Meng v.s Guan Yu and Lu Xun v.s Liu Bei were old v.s new in the sense of "Experienced commander v.s relative novice", but Zhou Yu was, like Cao Cao, highly experienced by Chi Bi (in the novel, at least- probably in history). Some counterexamples:

-Liu Bei v.s Cao Cao at Han Zhong (Liu Bei is 'old order' in the sense of the Han)
-Ma Chao v.s Cao Cao at Tong Gate (Ma Chao has much less experience)
-Cao Cao v.s Lu Bu in Yan Province (Lu Bu was new to the area)
-Yuan Shu v.s Cao Cao (Yuan Shu was trying to declare a new order)
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