Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Aygor » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:23 am

AxeLordGerardo wrote:
DragonAtma wrote:Well, we both know that Yuan Shao BELIEVED them to be competent. Obviously, that wasn't the case. XD

RoTK games generally put them at 90-95 war (and, when they include it, 75-80 leadership); I'd put them at 70-75 for both -- but them again, I'm one of those crazies who'd put Lu Bu the "invincible" at ~90 war and ~55 lead.

Forget about Qu Yi. I dont know who said that he was the best Yuan Shao´s officer, but I don´t think that only because Gongsun Zan died at his hands, he must be the best.


Qu Yi had an amazing career and he seems to have been quick witted and versed for strategies, other than a brave warrior.
Probably not the best fighter, but arguably one of the best (if not the best) commanders under Yuan Shao.
If I remember correctly, Cao Cao is reported to have said, in SGZ, that with Qu Yi he'd have unified the realm.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:15 am

I don't think Gongsun Zan died at Qu Yi's hands seeing as he outlived him by eight years! XD

It's on record that Qu Yi was highly regarded by many leaders. He sucked at tact, though -- and that caused Yuan Shao to execute him.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:41 am

AxeLordGerardo wrote:I don´t think that Yan Liang and Wen Chou were not worth of their encommended tasks. Historical or not.


Not historical and I think this topic has gone down the history line somewhat, thus why people haven't mentioned it.

I think Yan Liang is a tad unfortunate, historical or novel, he was caught utterly unawares though presumably there was some sort of gap in his lines to allow him to be so easily reached. Wen Chou though either was foolish or an inept leader

Aygor, think that quote was about Ju Shou.

Huh, never realized Zan outlived Qu Yi.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Aygor » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:03 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Aygor, think that quote was about Ju Shou.

Definitely makes more sense :lol:
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:51 am

I am not agree with you Dong. Wen Chou was a worth leader, but perhaps in his last move he needed an advisor at his side to consult what to do in each moment. The way he died does not demonstrate that he wasn't foolish at all. Maybe he was not such a great one, but you know, a mediocre leader is a perfect vassal. Remember the battle against Gongsun Zan, when he defeated the white rider's warlord and pursued him while he was constantly killing any troops who passed at his side, until he encountered Zhao Yun, that, after more than 50 bouts, not was capable of beat him. The things in its place.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:00 am

He either couldn't control his troops which suggests he was a bad leader, at least above the captain rank he had held before, or he was tricked very easily.

A mediocre leader does not make a good vassal unless he has other attributes to offer. In Wen Chou's case, he makes a good novel warrior/historical captain but it makes him a bad choice for a general.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:23 am

Forgive me but, where is said that Yan Liang and Wen Chou were not capable to control their troops. Maybe we are confusing terms here. One thing is that Yuan Shao was not capable to control his massive army and another is that a general cannot maintain his platoon in order. That not was the case of Yan & Wen.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:36 am

Wen Chou's men went out of control, lost their discipline and it ensured his defeat. Thus he could not control his men.

Yan Liang, as far as I know, could control his men.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:48 am

I cannot deny that, but think that is the natural response. When you are ambushed, the natural answer is that some of your men and horses end scattered. Even Cao Cao himself suffered the same situation at Xia Pi, so that cannot define the leadership.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:56 pm

They only got ambushed because they fell upon supplies left out as a ploy by Cao Cao, thus leaving them vulnerable to any ambush or counter-attack.
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