Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Iain » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:36 am

Maybe Yan Liang troops didnt like him very much, so they stood by while an enemy general rode in and chopped Yan's head off along with some half-hearted pursuit of Guan Yu and cries of outrage afterwards. ^^
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby ivolga » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:49 pm

Iain wrote:Maybe Yan Liang troops didnt like him very much, so they stood by while an enemy general rode in and chopped Yan's head off along with some half-hearted pursuit of Guan Yu and cries of outrage afterwards. ^^

There is an interesting explanation of this episode in "Sanguozhi Tongsu Yanyi" (the original romance version, before Mao Zonggang and Mao Lun's changes):
When Yan Liang took leave of Yuan Shao, Liu Xuande told him privately, 'I have a brother, Guan Yun-chang, nine spans five tall, with a beard one span eight; his face is ruddy as a date, his eyes are like those of the crimson-faced phoenix, topped by brows like nestling silkworms. He prefers to wear a green brocade battle gown; he rides a tawny mount and wields a green-dragon blade. I am certain he is with Cao Cao. If you see him, have him come to us as soon as possible.'

That's why Yan Liang didn't expect Guan Yu's attack: he thought Guan Yu came to join their side.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Aaron.K » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:25 am

Elitemsh wrote:
Didn’t halberds exist back then? Couldn’t you cut someone’s head off with the battleaxe part of this weapon whilst on horseback? Regardless I like the thought you’ve put into this. The problem is though that Guan Yu wasn’t likely alone at the time when he was killing Yan Liang. He attacked with Zhang Liao and others. Some of them would have been with him at the time. They may have covered him while he decapitated Yan Liang.


Can't believe I missed this way back when. Anyways, what we think of as halberds (the Qinglong and Fangtian Ji) are what Lu Bu is depicted as using. Crescent blade with a spear point. But there's no evidence that such a weapon existed during the Han dynasty. It did exist during the Song (a huge number of modern Chinese martial arts weapons can trace their design as far back as the Song dynasty), but based on what I've learned from Yun back when CHF was still around, was that such weapons were only used in a ceremonial sense.

There were essentially two types of polearms in existence at this time. Spears/lances, and ji, which are L shaped (think Lu Meng's first weapon in Dynasty Warriors 4). Ji came in many different sizes; short handheld ones that were almost like axes or fighting picks and could be thrown (Taishi Ci is described as having two short ones in his biography), longer ones that are spear length, and were predominantly used on foot, and might have been used on horseback as well but that's a hard question to adequately answer, and very long ones that were almost pike length, and sometimes had additional "Ge" sections along the haft.

This picture does a good job at showing them (Ge are the two on the left, Ji are the two in the middle):

Image

(Click for full size)

The two on the right are the ceremonial ones from the Song dynasty. It's possible that Guan Yu could cut off Yan Liang's head with a Ji, because the upper and lower edge of the protrusion was sharpened. It still would have been quite a difficult feat to kill and behead Liang with one of these in one stroke though. Even if Guan Yu used one on horseback, he still likely would've impaled Yan Liang with it and knocked him off his horse (due to the lack of high backed saddles or functional stirrups; there were single foot/toe loops that have been examined on sculptures which would have been helpful in mounting, but wouldn't function like a typical stirrup).
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Iain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:15 am

Interesting weapon selections, I always thought Guan Yu struck the hapless Yan Liang down and then calmly dismounted and beheaded him while Yan's troops watched in horror and amazement. ^^

It would seem to be a quite confusing few moments though and like people say who knows how many support troops or enemy troops were around the two men to do anything really aside from admire the view.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:54 pm

Aaron.K wrote:
Elitemsh wrote:
Didn’t halberds exist back then? Couldn’t you cut someone’s head off with the battleaxe part of this weapon whilst on horseback? Regardless I like the thought you’ve put into this. The problem is though that Guan Yu wasn’t likely alone at the time when he was killing Yan Liang. He attacked with Zhang Liao and others. Some of them would have been with him at the time. They may have covered him while he decapitated Yan Liang.


Can't believe I missed this way back when. Anyways, what we think of as halberds (the Qinglong and Fangtian Ji) are what Lu Bu is depicted as using. Crescent blade with a spear point. But there's no evidence that such a weapon existed during the Han dynasty. It did exist during the Song (a huge number of modern Chinese martial arts weapons can trace their design as far back as the Song dynasty), but based on what I've learned from Yun back when CHF was still around, was that such weapons were only used in a ceremonial sense.

There were essentially two types of polearms in existence at this time. Spears/lances, and ji, which are L shaped (think Lu Meng's first weapon in Dynasty Warriors 4). Ji came in many different sizes; short handheld ones that were almost like axes or fighting picks and could be thrown (Taishi Ci is described as having two short ones in his biography), longer ones that are spear length, and were predominantly used on foot, and might have been used on horseback as well but that's a hard question to adequately answer, and very long ones that were almost pike length, and sometimes had additional "Ge" sections along the haft.

This picture does a good job at showing them (Ge are the two on the left, Ji are the two in the middle):

Image

(Click for full size)

The two on the right are the ceremonial ones from the Song dynasty. It's possible that Guan Yu could cut off Yan Liang's head with a Ji, because the upper and lower edge of the protrusion was sharpened. It still would have been quite a difficult feat to kill and behead Liang with one of these in one stroke though. Even if Guan Yu used one on horseback, he still likely would've impaled Yan Liang with it and knocked him off his horse (due to the lack of high backed saddles or functional stirrups; there were single foot/toe loops that have been examined on sculptures which would have been helpful in mounting, but wouldn't function like a typical stirrup).


I nearly replied to that post a few days ago. Graff argues that by the end of the Later Han Ji was largely out of use and had been replaced by a more standardised lance? I'll post the quote when I'm next online at home.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Aaron.K » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:25 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
I nearly replied to that post a few days ago. Graff argues that by the end of the Later Han Ji was largely out of use and had been replaced by a more standardised lance? I'll post the quote when I'm next online at home.


Yeah, it does seem to have been replaced by spears for the most part based on what I learned from Yun at CHF. But it seems to have been transitional. The Ji's appendage eventually curved upwards to make a weapon more like a fork, until eventually losing it entirely and just being a spear. There were also two types of spears; Qiang and Mao. It's unclear how each were fully classified, but some research suggests that the Mao had a thicker spear head and was intended for defeating armour (it was basically a spike, diamond in cross section), while the Qiang's spear head was not as thick and the edges were keener, making it suitable for cutting in addition to thrusting, not that different from a 17th century partisan (though as far as I know it didn't have wings like a partisan).

There was also a difference in how they were attached to the haft, but I can't quite remember which one was which; one was lashed to the haft with throngs going through loops on the socket, while the other appears to have been socketed and secured with a peg/pin.
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Re: Wen Chou and Yan Liang , any extra info ?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:21 pm

As promised:

Medieval Chinese Warfare, 300-900 by David A. Graff p.41

Gradually, during the four centuries between 200 Bc and AD 200, the jian was supplanted in military use by the dao... Over the same span of years, the ji, a long handled weapon with several blades that was used as much for hooking as for thrusting, yielded to spears and lances of simpler construction.


This implies that by the battle of Guan Du the the Ji was pretty much redundant, so it's likely he was armed with a spear/lance and a dao.
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