Who did more, Zhou Yu or Zhuge Liang?

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Who did more, Zhou Yu or Zhuge Liang?

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:01 am

Who did more for their kingdoms? Zhou Yu or Zhuge Liang?
If you're only given a choice between one of them, who would you want to employ? By making a choice, does it mean that the one who is not chosen is inferior? :P
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:19 am

I would want ZL, but I would be keeping a tight rein on him. And I dunno if Zhou Yu was inferior exactly, I just prefer Kongming's area of expertise.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:25 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:I would want ZL, but I would be keeping a tight rein on him. And I dunno if Zhou Yu was inferior exactly, I just prefer Kongming's area of expertise.


Why would you need to keep a tight rein on Zhuge Liang? Also, what areas of expertise did he have to make you choose him over Zhou Yu?

Further to that, I've not stated where your kingdom is to be based in my first post. I want you pple to make that assumption yourself. Since you didn't, may I ask whether you'd choose Zhuge Liang if you're based in Jiang Dong? :D
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:49 am

Great Deer wrote:Why would you need to keep a tight rein on Zhuge Liang? Also, what areas of expertise did he have to make you choose him over Zhou Yu?

Further to that, I've not stated where your kingdom is to be based in my first post. I want you pple to make that assumption yourself. Since you didn't, may I ask whether you'd choose Zhuge Liang if you're based in Jiang Dong? :D


Cause the guys a control freak. And his area of expertise is political, where as Zhou Yu is military, and I know I would make a better commander than a politician.

Yes I would. Cause as I say, I'd still make a better naval commander than politician.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:02 am

To be fair to Generalisimo Zhuge Liang, should we compare two of them up to the age of 36? I mean Zhou Yu die at 36 so he don't have 18 extra years to screw up... :lol:

Up till the age of 36, Zhou Yu all the way. Up to the age of 54, Zhou Yu still all the way.
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Zhuge Liang is the man, no question:)

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:53 am

Great Deer wrote:Who did more for their kingdoms? Zhou Yu or Zhuge Liang?


Zhuge Liang. He kept his kingdom in the race like no other in Shu could've. Given the talent level and other things like troops, supplies, natural boundaries of the two kingdoms, I'd have to say that there were plenty of folks that could keep Wu afloat.

Great Deer wrote:If you're only given a choice between one of them, who would you want to employ?


Zhuge Liang, in a heartbeat. If his advice had been taken earlier on while Liu Bei was still alive, Shu would've had a much better chance of survival.

Great Deer wrote: By making a choice, does it mean that the one who is not chosen is inferior? :P


Nah, Zhou Yu was indeed a great general (or should we call him an admiral?). However, considering that Sun Ce probably could've succeeded in subduing JiangDong without him, and Cheng Pu and Huang Gai were probably adequate at Chi Bi, I don't see why he can't be replaced...in this place by Zhuge Liang. :wink:
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Re: Zhuge Liang is the man, no question:)

Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:08 am

Iznoach wrote:Zhuge Liang. He kept his kingdom in the race like no other in Shu could've. Given the talent level and other things like troops, supplies, natural boundaries of the two kingdoms, I'd have to say that there were plenty of folks that could keep Wu afloat.


The border of Shu was very secure from the north thanks largely to others not Zhuge Liang. Wu might have more land and resource after 223AD, but what was their territory before 208AD? only most of YangZhou and half of the prefecture of JiangXia. It was already s stretch in resource to send 30,000 troops to ChiBi. True that you say that there are plenty of folk in Wu that could keep Wu afloat, there were also plenty of folks was in Shu that could keep Shu stay afloat too.

Iznoach wrote:Zhuge Liang, in a heartbeat. If his advice had been taken earlier on while Liu Bei was still alive, Shu would've had a much better chance of survival.

What advice?

Iznoach wrote:Nah, Zhou Yu was indeed a great general (or should we call him an admiral?). However, considering that Sun Ce probably could've succeeded in subduing JiangDong without him, and Cheng Pu and Huang Gai were probably adequate at Chi Bi, I don't see why he can't be replaced...in this place by Zhuge Liang. :wink:

You didn't seem to read the situation during ChiBi very clearly do you? Nearly all of the Wu officials wanted Sun Quan to surrender, and ChiBi was a survival battle for Wu. If its your life that depend on it, would you send out just anyone or the best person that you have?
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Re: Zhuge Liang is the man, no question:)

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:34 am

Han Xin (Mr. Pink Dots) wrote:What advice?


Well, for starters when Liu Biao proposed Liu Bei to take over leadership of Jingzhou, Zhuge Liang said that he should (which would have been helpful farther down the road), but Liu Bei declined.

Han Xin (Mr. Pink Dots) wrote:You didn't seem to read the situation during ChiBi very clearly do you? Nearly all of the Wu officials wanted Sun Quan to surrender, and ChiBi was a survival battle for Wu. If its your life that depend on it, would you send out just anyone or the best person that you have?


I agree that it was a matter of survival for Wu. However, remember that Cheng Pu was mad that he wasn't selected as the CIC for the battle...and there were many able generals in the state of Wu that could have headed that up, including some of the veterans of Sun Jian's time like Huang Gai. Are you implying that these two weren't?
Last edited by Iznoach, Legendary Dragon on Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Chen Kun » Tue Nov 19, 2002 3:26 pm

needless to say I would pick Kongming,he had a great abilityin politics 8-)
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Unread postby James » Tue Nov 19, 2002 4:47 pm

After considering it for a while I will have to pass my vote for Kongming. Gongjin was certainly important to Wu, but I believe others could have served many of his functions. He played a major role in the battle of Chibi and in keeping Sun Quan to a defense instead of surrender, which is where any possible doubts of mine come from.

Zhuge Liang, especially after the death of Fa Zheng, served to keep Shu together. He may not have been a great military leader, but he knew how to plan the future of his kingdom. I think if he had been working in concert with someone like Fa Zheng great things could have been accomplished.

Actions like forming a solid alliance between Shu and Wu, especially after Liu Bei’s death, I feel are highly underrated. Without that alliance Shu would certainly have been swallowed long before it was. I think he also held the talent necessary to govern Shu or all of China if given the chance. Most importantly of all, it is my take on history that his loyalty to Liu Bei was solid.

Even though the northern campaigns never resulted in victory for Shu, Zhuge Liang was able to maintain a solid offensive and all aggression was met with a clear and concise defense in the later years. If anyone was going to match Deng Ai and save (probably delay) Shu’s fate it would have been Zhuge Liang.
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