Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

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Re: Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

Unread postby ROTKobsessed » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:43 pm

Sun Fin wrote:
Yuán Shù wrote: Yuan Shu fought against:


Yuán Shù wrote: Liu Bei (complete victory)


This is actually relatively impressive.


Is it really that impressive? Liu Bei lost left, right and centre during his early days
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Re: Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Some of the Yuan Shu victories and defeats seem a bit questionable but more on the lines of saying "Cao Cao won at Hefei," or "Sun Quan at Chi Bi". I would say that Sun Jian won against Dong Zhuo but Yuan Shu won? I don't blame Yuan Shu too much for cutting supplies, your new governor murdering commander has suddenly got contact from the enemy?

I would suggest Yuan Shu was a better plotter, and I don't mean that in the negative sense, then he was a military commander

Personally, I can't blame Yuan Shu for declaring himself Emperor. If he kept supporting the Han, he would've just been Cao Cao's vassal. If he didn't listen to Cao Cao, he would've been a rebel either way. Yuan Shu had Huainan, and a good portion of Yangzhou. Liu Bei wasn't a threat to him anymore, and Lu Bu in Xuzhou was his ally. Hindsight suggests that he made an absolutely terrible move, but I don't think it was a poor decision per se. It's not like in the ROTK games where Sun Ce is the red guy below you and Lu Bu is grey over in Xuzhou. I believe that Yuan Shu had a decent shot at hegemony if Sun Ce would've stayed loyal and if Lu Bu had been a solid ally.


I think the issue is, he made a target for himself. He put himself above the parapet and it was a gamble, how would allies react? How would those in key positions react? As it turned out, very badly. I'm not entirely sure what he was hoping to gain by becoming Emperor
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Re: Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:39 pm

The biggest issue with Yuan Shu declaring hismelf emperor is timing.

If he waited until he had a stronger position, then it may very well have worked. But when he did -- at a time when Yuan Shao, Cao Cao, Liu Biao, and Liu Zhang all rivaled him in power -- he came across as someone desperately grasping for power (which he may very well have been doing!)

Long ago, some of you may have played Castles II: Siege & Conquest. For those who haven't, the king of "Bretagne" (France) is dead, and your goal is to build up your force's power until you have 7000+ score, claim the throne, and then hold out against the others over the next several months (all with never falling below 7000, even though merely claiming the throne hurts relations with everyone). A smart player'll build up a nice point buffer, yet Yuan Shu did the equivalent of claiming the throne the instant he hit 7001 points -- and with the same results.
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Re: Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:33 pm

Yuán Shù wrote:My main argument was that Yuan Shu was fighting completely different battles than Sun Ce, not that he was necessarily a better general. Yuan Shu was one of the major players from the beginning; the massacre of the eunuchs, the Anti-Dong Zhuo coalition, the struggle for the Central Plains, etc. Sun Ce spent three or four years taking over (most of) a backwards province. I don't think we can be sure that Sun Ce would have done any better in Yuan Shu's, erm, shoes.


As my mum told me after a football game (which we won): you can only beat who you come up against. Sun Ce beat virtually everyone he fought, it’s true we don’t know what he have done if he had come up against Cao Cao but he did well enough in his political skirmishes. Meanwhile Yuan Shu got beaten repetitively by his opponents, they may have been of a better quality of general but he still lost the war. We can’t be 100% sure, but I’m 99% certain because IMO he’d struggle to do a worse job :P.

Yuán Shù wrote:Personally, I can't blame Yuan Shu for declaring himself Emperor. If he kept supporting the Han, he would've just been Cao Cao's vassal. If he didn't listen to Cao Cao, he would've been a rebel either way. Yuan Shu had Huainan, and a good portion of Yangzhou. Liu Bei wasn't a threat to him anymore, and Lu Bu in Xuzhou was his ally. Hindsight suggests that he made an absolutely terrible move, but I don't think it was a poor decision per se. It's not like in the ROTK games where Sun Ce is the red guy below you and Lu Bu is grey over in Xuzhou. I believe that Yuan Shu had a decent shot at hegemony if Sun Ce would've stayed loyal and if Lu Bu had been a solid ally.


Sun Ce/Quan were nominally vassals of Cao Cao as was Liu Zhang, it was all about playing the long game which Yuan Shu was too short sighted to do. Even with Ce and Lu Bu I don’t think Yuan Shu would have been able to overcome Yuan Shao, Cao Cao and Liu Biao. Besides, as I debated with scholar earlier, after the way Ce had been treated and with Lu Bu’s history I don’t see why Yuan Shu had any expectation of them staying loyal.

Yuán Shù wrote:Besides, I think Yuan Shu had the most legitimate claim to the throne (barring the Cao family later). He was a better Emperor than Liu Xie, anyway. :P


Just in case you’re not joking with that statement: Liu Biao, Liu Yan, Liu Yu and Liu Chong (who Shu had murdered) all had vastly better claims than Yuan Shu...

ROTKobsessed wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:
Yuán Shù wrote: Yuan Shu fought against:


Yuán Shù wrote: Liu Bei (complete victory)


This is actually relatively impressive.


Is it really that impressive? Liu Bei lost left, right and centre during his early days


More impressive than any of Yuan Shu’s other so called victories.

Dong Zhou wrote:Some of the Yuan Shu victories and defeats seem a bit questionable but more on the lines of saying "Cao Cao won at Hefei," or "Sun Quan at Chi Bi". I would say that Sun Jian won against Dong Zhuo but Yuan Shu won? I don't blame Yuan Shu too much for cutting supplies, your new governor murdering commander has suddenly got contact from the enemy?

I would suggest Yuan Shu was a better plotter, and I don't mean that in the negative sense, then he was a military commander


In all fairness Yuan Shu and I had made that distinction:

Yuán Shù wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:
Yuán Shù wrote: Yuan Shu fought against:


I guess in the strictest sense of the word what you have said is true Yuán Shù however there is a key difference here between Sun Ce beating someone and Yuan Shu beating someone. Ce actually beat them directly in a military conflict, Yuan Shu used his subordinates. Now there is nothing wrong with being able to use your men efficiently. However I would question whether Yuan Shu did do that.


Yes, I would agree with that difference. IMO, Sun Ce's best asset was his ability to lead his men from the front-lines. However, Yuan Shu had at one point bounced back from his defeats in the Central Plains and created the largest faction in China. If he's a poor general, and doesn't know how to use his men, then how is this even possible? Also, it's not like Yuan Shu just sat in a castle and drank honey-water; he did command his troops sometimes. :lol:


That was a long post, problem with putting off replying! :lol:
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Re: Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:07 am

In all fairness Yuan Shu and I had made that distinction:


My apologies
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Re: Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:24 am

We are passing above the fact that Yuan Shu indirectly was the one responsible for the Wu Kingdom success.
If any of this events didn´t happened:

- Sun Jian don´t find the Hereditary Seal.

- Nobody advises Sun Ce the idea of giving Yuan Shu the Seal.

- Sun Ce don´t give the Seal to Yuan Shu in exchange of troops.

- Yuan Shu don´t accept the Seal or he punishes Sun Ce for not inform him of its whereabouts before.

- Yuan Shu don´t lose his mind when he receives the Seal.

- Yuan Shu does not declare himself Emperor.

... then Sun Ce and his former father´s officers could had remained as Yuan Shu´s servants forever and Yuan Shu´s struggle on the China map could have endure but many more years. In my opinion, :arrow: no doubts about it.
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Re: Yuan Shao - Yuan Shu

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:31 am

AxeLordGerardo wrote:We are passing above the fact that Yuan Shu indirectly was the one responsible for the Wu Kingdom success.
If any of this events didn´t happened:

- Sun Jian don´t find the Hereditary Seal.

- Nobody advises Sun Ce the idea of giving Yuan Shu the Seal.

- Sun Ce don´t give the Seal to Yuan Shu in exchange of troops.

- Yuan Shu don´t accept the Seal or he punishes Sun Ce for not inform him of its whereabouts before.

- Yuan Shu don´t lose his mind when he receives the Seal.

- Yuan Shu does not declare himself Emperor.

... then Sun Ce and his former father´s officers could had remained as Yuan Shu´s servants forever and Yuan Shu´s struggle on the China map could have endure but many more years. In my opinion, :arrow: no doubts about it.


Hey mate, so quite a lot of what is written in the novel isn't historically true. Sun Jian did find the seal but as far we can tell he gave the seal straight to Yuan Shu. What is certainly true is that Sun Ce got troops from Yuan Shu because he had worked his way up through Yuan Shu's ranks and had earned them. He was still a subordinate of Yuan Shu when he started to conquer Yang and he only became independent after Yuan Shu declared himself Emperor.
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