Xu Huang vs Zhang Liao

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Xu Huang vs Zhang Liao

Unread postby Ma Cheng » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:26 pm

Can someone tell me what is considered Xu Huang's greatest achievement? Universally or personally, I apologise if this questions sounds whimsical but I've discussed with my friend about how Xu Huang is onr of my favourite generals and I was wondering what is generall considered his stand out moment.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cao Chao » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:50 am

Xu Huang started out as a commandant under Yang Feng during the Yellow Turban Rebellion and served with Yang Feng through the trials and tribulations that led to Han Xiandi fleeing to Luoyang. When Cao Cao defeated Yang Feng, Xu Huang surrendered to Cao Cao.

During the Battle of Guandu, Xu Huang burned Yuan Shao's supply lines. Subsequently in the war against Yuan Shao's sons, Xu Huang helped to induce Han Fan's surrender.

He assisted Cao Ren in the failed defense of Jingzhou after the defeat at Chibi.

During the campaign against Ma Chao, Xu Huang crossed the Huang He at Puban, routing an attack by Liang Xing.

In the Hanzhong defense campaign, Xu Huang defeated Chen Shi.

When Guan Yu marched north, annihilating Yu Jin's seven armies, capturing Pang De, and besieging Cao Ren in Fancheng, Xu Huang was dispatched as the second relief force. In this capacity and in command of green troops, Xu Huang broke the siege and forced Guan Yu to retreat. As a result of this campaign, Xu Huang was compared by Cao Cao to Sunzi and Tian Rangju . . . and when his troops showed their discipline upon returning to the capital, he was compared to another famous general, Zhou Yafu.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:32 am

Defense against Guan Yu mainly. But he was, like Zhang He, more of a guy who was involed in several conflicts and had a solid military career, and nothing really screams out quite like Zhang Liao's Hefei, Lu Meng's Jing, or Zhao Yun's empty fort/defensive ability under pressure.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby plunged » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:06 am

Cao Chao wrote:Xu Huang started out as a commandant under Yang Feng during the Yellow Turban Rebellion and served with Yang Feng through the trials and tribulations that led to Han Xiandi fleeing to Luoyang.


Xu Huang and Yang Feng didn't fight in the Yellow Turban Rebellion as far as I know.
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Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Chan Zilong » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:02 pm

Zyzyfer wrote:Defense against Guan Yu mainly. But he was, like Zhang He, more of a guy who was involed in several conflicts and had a solid military career, and nothing really screams out quite like Zhang Liao's Hefei, Lu Meng's Jing, or Zhao Yun's empty fort/defensive ability under pressure.


zhao yun's empty fort is that historical or just in the novel?

also i heard that liu bei is fond of fine clothing (expensive) is this historical or just folk lore?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cao Chao » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:18 pm

plunged wrote:
Cao Chao wrote:Xu Huang started out as a commandant under Yang Feng during the Yellow Turban Rebellion and served with Yang Feng through the trials and tribulations that led to Han Xiandi fleeing to Luoyang.


Xu Huang and Yang Feng didn't fight in the Yellow Turban Rebellion as far as I know.

His Sanguozhi bio refers to his service under Yang Feng against thieves or rebels - meaning the Yellow Turbans or one of their offshoots.
Chan Zilong wrote:zhao yun's empty fort is that historical or just in the novel?

Historically, the empty city ploy was first used during China's Spring and Autumn Period during a campaign by Prince Yuan of Chu against the State of Zheng.

According to Yi Zhongtian, a popular Three Kingdoms historian, Cao Cao also used a variant of the empty city ploy in one of his campaigns against Lü Bu (giving the suggestion that there are troops when they are really none, which is the basis of the ploy).

Zhao Yun's empty city ploy is what is denoted in SGYY, helping to save Huang Zhong during the Hanzhong campaign and then spooking Cao Cao.
Last edited by Cao Chao on Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:21 pm

Zhao Yun's empty fort is mentioned historically in the battle of Hanzhong. Zhuge Liang's usage of the ploy however, is fictional.

I disagree about Xu Huang not having epic moments. The way he rushed through Guan Yu's heavy encirclement, using a rare formation, tricking Guan Yu with rumors, and whooping him with inexperienced troops is freaking awesome.

In Hanzhong, Xu Huang chased a Shu unit up a mountain - they ended up throwing themselves out of fear.

I honestly view Xu Huang as one of the most brilliant generals of the era, a lot better than Zhang He and slightly better than Zhang Liao even.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Gray Riders » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:42 pm

Yang Dayang wrote:I disagree about Xu Huang not having epic moments. The way he rushed through Guan Yu's heavy encirclement, using a rare formation, tricking Guan Yu with rumors, and whooping him with inexperienced troops is freaking awesome.

It may be worth noting that Xu Huang's initial force was inexperienced but there doesn't seem to be such an indication about the ten divisions of reinforcements he received before attacking Guan Yu.

He's still my favorite Wei officer though. :)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cao Chao » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:46 pm

Xu Huang compares favorably against Yue Jin, Yu Jin and Zhang He. The only reason Yu Jin compares unfavorably after so many campaigns is because of his surrender to Guan Yu when even Pang De did not. Yue Jin and Zhang He though capable commanders did not really have a signature campaign/battle where basically they won it by themselves. Yue Jin is best known for killing Chunyu Qiong and burning Yuan Shao's supply camp at Wuchao. Zhang He did win at Jieting, but that was mainly due to Ma Su's boneheadedness.

It's kind of difficult to place Xu Huang above Zhang Liao even with Xu Huang's wiping the floor with Chen Shi and defeating Guan Yu. Zhang Liao had three major contributions - the first was leading the charge that broke Tadun at White Wolf Mountain, the second during the campaign against Chen Lan and Mei Cheng where he killed both, and lastly, the famous Battle at Xiaoyao Ford.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:25 pm

Yeah, it's true that Zhang Liao has more and bigger accomplishments, but I think Xu Huang's accomplishments showcase more talent than Zhang Liao's. Zhang Liao is kind of reckless at times, while I like Xu Huang's disciplines. I think Xu Huang being able to cross a river and beat a bigger enemy (Liang Xing) is very impressive moment, and that, alongside He Fei makes me think Xu Huang is better tactician than Zhang Liao - who won by might only IIRC.

I also trust Cao Cao's judgement :P
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