Wu's destiny

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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby Korin » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:41 pm

Tokugawa Liang wrote:Did Wu go as far down as actual Thailand?



They did? I thought they only went as far as Shi Xie's area?
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:40 am

Did Wu go as far down as actual Thailand?


No. Not even close. They controlled a sizable area of Northern Vietnam.
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby Tokugawa Liang » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:27 pm

Ok. But what interest di they have to go down there?
English is not my mother tongue. I hope the comprehension isn't too hard.

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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby simple » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:40 pm

Jordan wrote:
Did Wu go as far down as actual Thailand?


No. Not even close. They controlled a sizable area of Northern Vietnam.


likely the 越族 back then is the current vietnamese
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby Korin » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:44 pm

According to the map I've been looking at.. Shi Xie's area is deadly close to Vietnam... so that makes sense if Wu controlled a small section in Northern Vietnam, since Shi Xie in his later years served Wu.
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:34 pm

simple wrote:
Jordan wrote:
Did Wu go as far down as actual Thailand?


No. Not even close. They controlled a sizable area of Northern Vietnam.


likely the 越族 back then is the current vietnamese


Many people have speculated that this was the case, yeah.

I'm not an expert at ethnography and I prefer not to delve too deeply into it, as I believe there are a lot of tricky things about ethnicity.

I do definitely think, though, that it is necessary to take ourselves out of a mindset of judging peoples and countries by their modern borders today, which are artificial constructs. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that the ancestors of the Viets could have existed in a different area space than they do today. If the Yue were ancestors of the modern day Vietnamese, my understanding is that they were present in areas of South China and Vietnam.
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:43 pm

Like all Empires succession kills. I have always Respected Lu Kangs Last ditch efforts to save his kingdom. I believe had he some help and Sunhao actually listened to what he had to say (or had a Emperor who wasn't mental and had at least some level of intellect) The Eastern Wu empire Could have lasted a little while longer.

This also raises a question for me, just how good were the Wu defenses? Could prolonged attack from Wei/Jin eventually crack it had Wu been internally stable after Quans passing? iv always been interested in knowing if they had the capabilities to be a independent kingdom from the north (as out right conquering the north was a far removed idea and is a reason I at least back the Jingzhou campaign as it was the best means of securing the kingdom and defense, Securing your kingdoms power and defense is more vital than trying to waste resources conquering the impossible.)
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:05 pm

As long as Shu and Wu were around, Wei had trouble expanding; they were blocked by the Hanzhong mountaisn and the Yangtze river. But once Shu fell, Wei controlled the upper reaches of the Yangtze; they could ship wood down there, build a massive navy, and use it to seize control of the Yangtze (which they did).

It's possible (but unlikely) that the mountains on the Jing-Yi border would help, but sooner or later Jin's strength would just be too much. The only exception I see is if Wu holds out until 291 and Jin lets the war of the eight princes occur. In that case, Eastern Jin would not occur (Sima Rui could hardly run Yangzhou if Wu is still around!), and Wu would be among the Sixteen Kingdoms.

....hmmm, you could make an interesting What If scenario where Jiang Wei avoids the 263 gamble (thus holding off Wei), Sun Wan succeeds Sun Xiu, and the war of the eight princes occurs.
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby Fornadan » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:26 am

Sui's conquest of Chen three hundred years later followed the same blueprint iirc. I think the strategic strength of controlling both the north and Shu is just too great. In general Jianye/Jiankang seems to have been very vulnerable to attacks from upriver. as such Red Cliffs stands out as the anomaly


A lot of the dynamics of the war of eight kings rely on the Jin having no real external threats, so a scenario where Wu survives becomes very speculative
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Re: Wu's destiny

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:25 pm

dymlos timbre wrote:Like all Empires succession kills. I have always Respected Lu Kangs Last ditch efforts to save his kingdom. I believe had he some help and Sunhao actually listened to what he had to say (or had a Emperor who wasn't mental and had at least some level of intellect) The Eastern Wu empire Could have lasted a little while longer.


Sun Hao was a noted intellect, partly why he got the job of Emperor, and a great wit. Paranoia was Sun Hao's big problem and there was a reason he had that like the destruction of his father.

I think the loss of Shu and that Jin was able to send 11 armies at Wu makes it hard to see how even a stable Wu (which it had not been for a long long time) could hold out based on sheer numbers. Wu would have had to put up an exceptional defence for quite some time till Jin's resources got exhausted.
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