Views about Pang Tong

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:55 am

I am curious to hear everyones opinions on Pang Tong an advisor to Liu Bei. It seems this man historically died very young at 36 and did not reach his full potential in my opinion he seemed very wise and saved face with Liu Bei when Pang and him got into a heated arguement about the way he celebrated his victory in the Yi Province. He seemed wise when Liu asked Pang,"When that happened, whose fault did you think it was?" Pang replied, "It was both yours and mine." Liu laughed and the banquet continued. Does anyone have more info on Pang's death? Was he killed in the front lines in command?
Sima Yi 77
Apprentice
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:30 pm

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:00 am

Yep, I believe he was shot by a stray arrow during a siege on one of Liu Zhang's territories. The novel credits it to Zhang Ren's unit.

Pang Tong is my personal “untapped potential” favorite. His main claim to fame is unfortunately just recommending three plans to take Yi for Liu Bei. He also had a respected reputation. If either he or Fa Zheng had lived longer, early Shu probably would have fared better.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:06 am

He advised Liu Bei about dealing with Liu Zhang and then died.

His advice was pretty good, and also interesting since it considered multiple options. There is not much to say about him otherwise though. The novel overrates him significantly. Historically he was a useful aid to Liu Bei but died too early.
User avatar
Jordan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:52 am

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:03 pm

Showed talent, gained a reputation and I do like the ability to both judge Liu Bei's mood and offer three plans for one camapign, something that seems to be rarely done/recorded. Also unlucky.

His first advice makes me think he had a reckless/gambling streak to his plans, something that nobody else in Liu Bei's army seems to have had. Which could have made him a great asset or a big problem.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14503
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:41 am

One of Liu Bei's big problems has always been the lack of flairful/daring strategists though. Too much blunt instrument, not enough deft and cunning.

I'm not so sure though that Pang Tong is actually brilliant to that level, but as everybody has said, untapped potential.
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:33 am

About the three strategies, that can be taken all sorts of ways - including that it meant nothing at all. Who knows, maybe that was how people gave their advice.

I see it as meaning either Liu Zhang was seen as wholly incompetent by Pang Tong, or Pang Tong was pandering to Liu Bei by not recommending a specific course of action, leaving the choice to Liu Bei to make. I mean, he gave three plans, but they weren't the craftiest ideas around. Just my opinion.
Gamefaqs: KongZhou
Steam: heinous_won
User avatar
Zyzyfer
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 3052
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:17 pm
Location: South Korea

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:43 am

Yeah the plans he was giving to be honest, didn't seem to be on the crazy omniscient plans that say...Jia Xu or Lu Xun, comes up with.
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:10 am

Crazedmongoose wrote:Yeah the plans he was giving to be honest, didn't seem to be on the crazy omniscient plans that say...Jia Xu or Lu Xun, comes up with.


Chinese history seems to have a fondness for prescience at a level which I find hard to believe sometimes. If something disastrous is about to happen, there's always some anecdote about the one old man or wise adviser or whatever who predicted it.
User avatar
Jordan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:52 am

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:13 am

You may be right about that. Though come on, it's hard not to be impressed with, say, Jia Xu's predictions of Zhang Xiu pursuing Cao Cao twice.
User avatar
Crazedmongoose
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:10 am
Location: Sydney, Aus

Re: Views about Pang Tong

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:22 pm

I'm always a bit skeptical, but some things are more believable than others.

This quote from the bio on Kongming Archives of Xun Yu, as an example, seems completely ridiculous to me.

[Xun Yu said] "Yuan Shao’s troops are numerous, but their discipline is lax. Tian Feng is bold but too blunt to his superiors. Xu You is greedy and undisciplined. Shen Pei is devoted but stupid. Feng Ji is determined but selfish. The latter two men are left to administer to domestic affairs. If someone from Xu You’s family violates the law, they would definitely not spare him. And if they don’t spare him, Xu You would give to treason. As for Yan Liang and Wen Chou, they are simple men of prowess, and can be captured in the first battle.”

I have a lot of trouble believing that Xun Yu could predict all of this. How did he even know who several of these people were or what would bring about their failures/defections/whatever? I could understand, "Yuan Shao's army is strong, but lacks discipline and has problems," but not this kind of detailed analysis of all of Yuan Shao's officers' flaws. Even if Xun Yu had spies watching everything going on in Yuan Shao's lands, somehow, I'd find this kind of difficult to believe. There's also the fortune-tellers/old men that predict the fall of kingdoms accurately, predict that high ministers like He Yan, et. al are going to die, predict that Liu Bei will gain Hanzhong but lose its people and all kinds of other foresight that sounds good in a story but doesn't seem very realistic to me.
User avatar
Jordan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:52 am

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 8 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved