Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

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Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:52 pm

I wanted to start another poll for Liu Bei's top 5 generals. I hope more people will voice there opinions to this one as well as the Cao Cao. I started. So who do you guys feel are Bei's top 5 and do you agree with the following 5 (Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun, Guan Yu, Huang Zhong, Ma Chao)? Maybe you guys want to rank in order as the best being first etc. Please lets stick with historical figures thanks!
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby XuSheng » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:23 am

1. Zhang Fei (No doubt the best in Shu, his victory are greater than every other Shu commander.)

2. Wei Yan (OK he defect Shu, but when Zhuge Liang was in charge of the army he was THE main general and he won a couple of battle vs Wei.)

3. Zhao Yun (Good bodyguard and have a long career.)

4. Guan Yu. He found defeat against Yue Jin, Xu Huang, Lu Meng, Gan Ning, etc... BUT he has to be there because when he was under Zhuge Liang or Liu Bei, he did pretty good. However, when he is commanding the army.... He sucked.)

5. Wang Ping (One of not many officer who found victory vs Wei in late years, but he has a too short career to be higher)

Why Ma Chao and Huang Zhong are removed:

Ma Chao : Did give a hard time vs Cao Cao, but when he was with Shu...

Huang Zhong: Raid Xiahou Yuan and killing him and then ????, that's it not so much.


P.S: I predict a futur topic on Wu generals :lol:
Last edited by XuSheng on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:19 am

This is Liu Bei's top 5 generals and not Shu-Han's top 5 generals, so it's a little bit narrow.

Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei are definitely up there. Huang Zhong likely wins a spot for his victory as well. Ma Chao barely did anything for Liu Bei. Most of his career was as an independent warlord or subordinate of his father. Guan Yu possibly wins a spot, but he wasn't really amazing. There aren't a lot of choices though here, really...
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:22 am

Jordan wrote:This is Liu Bei's top 5 generals and not Shu-Han's top 5 generals, so it's a little bit narrow.

Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei are definitely up there. Huang Zhong likely wins a spot for his victory as well. Ma Chao barely did anything for Liu Bei. Most of his career was as an independent warlord or subordinate of his father. Guan Yu possibly wins a spot, but he wasn't really amazing. There aren't a lot of choices though here, really...



That is true we are just sticking with Liu Bei's generals but XuSheng makes a interesting pick with Wang Ping but your right Wang Ping only received a Major-General title from Liu Bei and really did not achieve great success under his command until after Liu Bei's death did he begin getting recognition under other Shu leadership.

There is a few generals to choose from such as:

Huo Jun, Wei Yan, Fu Rong, and Chen Dao :)
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:07 am

XuSheng yes you are wise beyond your years Wu is coming soon lol..


My picks are these:

1. Zhao Yun
2. Zhang Fei
3. Huang Zhong and why because yes he was an old man but he had been documented with great success in Liu Bei's Yi Province campaign and was given title for this campaign success. He also was instrumental for having Xiahou Yuan routed and killed in battle at Mount Dingjun and once again he had title bestowed on himself. But as we all know Huang died in 220.
4. Wei Yan- Chen Shou did not like this man and therefore excluded him from being on the top 5 list this is mind boggling to me if you dissect his career he easily fits in and replaces Ma Chao hands down. Had many accomplishments in the Yi Province campaign and received title. He also did well in Hanzhong. Wei is another general who did well after the death of Liu Bei but his accomplishments prior speaks for themself.
5. Guan Yu

I am torn to making Chen Dao replace Wei Yan because Liu Bei used Chen as an aide and fought with Liu through YI Province campaign, Hanzhong, etc and given head of command of the famed "White eared unit" a detail that was used for personal protection for Liu Bei so entrusted this man with his life and in my opinion Chen was more then a bodyguard he was a tough as nails General, who was by Liu's side always. He also was made Protector of the Army and his loyalty was said to be as great as Zhao Yun.
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:07 pm

Sima Yi 77, please could you avoid double posting?

Chen Shou did not like this man and therefore excluded him from being on the top 5 list this is mind boggling to me if you dissect his career he easily fits in and replaces Ma Chao hands down.


Curious as to what deeds he had in Yi?

Chen Shou went out of his way to defend Wei Yan when simply saying nothing would have seen Wei Yan lambasted as being a traitor. Instead we just blame Wei Yan for being an egotistical sod who endangered the lives of an entire army in a selfish powerplay.

Besides, weren't the five due to rank given to them by... Liu Shan I think it was? So makes sense Wei Yan was not on that list.

I am torn to making Chen Dao replace Wei Yan because Liu Bei used Chen as an aide and fought with Liu through YI Province campaign, Hanzhong, etc and given head of command of the famed "White eared unit" a detail that was used for personal protection for Liu Bei so entrusted this man with his life and in my opinion Chen was more then a bodyguard he was a tough as nails General, who was by Liu's side always.


First I have heard of most of this. Isn't his sgz pretty much "put down revolt, considered as fierce/loyal or something as Zhao Yun"?

Edit: Forgot my five:

1) Zhang Fei

2) Zhao Yun

3) Huang Zhong

4) Ma Chao- Yes his achievements were nothing to Liu Bei but he had a good record and was one of the more famous Shu generals. Which does mean I should include Guan Yu for said fame but I won't, despite lack of choices.

5) Hou Jun for his efforts in Yi, some impressive defensive work. Was kind of tempted to go for Li Yan as a sop to the gentry of Yi
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:43 pm

There is very little written about Chen Dao but he got high praise from Yang Xi (think that was the name). In the poem, Chen Dao (along with Zhao Yun) is said to be 'among the bravest of generals of prowess' and that he is 'choice officer for taking of realms'. It seems that Chen Dao was held in high regard. I get the impression that he was an important and very useful asset. Why don't we know more? Well obviously the fact that he was a Shu general. Also could be that he was not part of Liu Bei's inner circle. Zhao Yun was very close to Liu Bei and this may have helped him get into the history books more. There's also the lack of a Huang Zhong moment to compensate. Huang Zhong would probably have gotten a Chen Dao treatment were it not for his unit killing Xiahou Yuan. There's also the fact that Dao was not involved in nortern campaigns because Liang apparently wanted him to balance out Li Yan or something like that (someone else said this once in another topic).

My list:

Zhang Fei
Zhao Yun
Ma Chao
Huang Zhong
Wei Yan- as much as I dislike him, I think he and Huang Zhong were very useful to Liu Bei, with absence of Guan, Zhang and Zhao when Liu Bei went to attack Yi.
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:07 pm

Dong Zhou


To answer your questions with out trying to double post lol :lol:

Wei Yan credientials in YI are as follow: Helped defeat Zhuge Ren one of Liu Zhang's generals went on with Liu Bei to help him defeat Liu Zhang at his capital Chengdu which they surrounded and inevitably surrendered. Wei then receives title of General of the Standard for his feats in Yi. Why, I said about Chen Shou was he stated Wei was a very arrogant man and many avoided him for this attribute. I'm not dissagreeing with peoples(in general) thoughts about Wei Yan he was arrogant but his overall command was successful under Liu Bei.

Chen Dao not much is written on this man and, I am desperatley trying to find everything, I can on him. What we have read about him we cannot deny he as Elitmesh put it was close to Liu Bei and I was merely pointing out given the ranks bestowed on him from Liu Bei(Area commander of Yong'an, General who attacks the West, Marquis, and Central Protector of the Army) I dont know what Liu Bei was thinking but I'm sure he saved one of his personal best Generals to by his side at all times.

Interesting pick you made with Huo Jin another one we have very little on but yes he was a good Shu General.
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:59 pm

I am pretty certain that Zhao Yun was also given central protector of the army rank at some point in his career so they definitely had a similar skill set. I read somewhere (perhaps in Rafe's work) that rank granted important military power. I forgot when I read this but I think it means that one of their duties was training and disciplining the army. Actually having just checked, Rafe briefly mentions that protector of army signifies that this person was in charge of discipline. I think it was an additional military responsibility rather than the primary one. Zhao Yun was given General who conquers the south at the same time as he was given this rank. It is probable that at the time Zhao Yun was situated in Yi, maybe towards the south. This makes sense because he had marched through this area during Yi battle. It's like Zhang Fei being situated in Ba. When Zhao Yun was moved to East (out of fear of a Wu attack) his rank was appropriately changed. In many circumstances rank can indicate location. It is likely that when Zhao Yun moved East, Chen Dao was made central protector of the army. It's almost like if Zhao Yun's wasn't available or needed for something more pertinent, Chen Dao replaces his former duty. Another example, Zhao Yun was brought to Hanzhong from east when Zhuge Liang began his campaigns. Chen Dao then seemed to take over Zhao Yun's old role. On second thought I think this is when Dao was made protector of the army. Anyhow I think we can see a pattern here.

I have something further to add. With the death of Liu Bei and Zhang Fei, it seems like Zhao Yun was considered the big dog when it comes to military. Consider after battle of Yi Ling, Shu's biggest military concern is that Wu will attack them and they consequently turn to their best general. It seems that Chen Dao was second but perhaps considered second only to him.
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Re: Liu Bei's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:41 pm

Elitemsh awesome summary and great information with great detail :D This makes perfect sense Dao second to Yun!
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