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Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:35 am
by Sima Yi 77
I want to make a poll of the top 5 general staff of Cao Cao and get to see what everyone picks as the top 5. I do not agree with Chen Shou's top 5 pick and want people to explain why they choose there five? I will give my 5 and with explanations. I think this will be fun :D

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:05 am
by Zyzyfer
If we're going off of history, people like Yue Jin, Yu Jin, and Xu Huang had pretty solid careers. Cao Chun was fairly prolific. Zhang He did rather well too. Cao Zhen. Zhang Liao did some key stuff that gets overshadowed.

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:17 am
by Elitemsh
I generally agree with the five Wei elite being the best Cao Cao had. The only other guy that i can think of that was possibly as good (in Wei) was Cao Ren. Presumably because he was Cao Cao's relative, he was excluded. Cao Ren's a bit of enigma though. I find him difficult to rate and there's some contradiction in one of his key battles.

Cao Chun, all i know about him is that he was part of the cavalry that chased after and beat Liu Bei at Changban. He then kidnapped Liu Bei's daughters. What he did he do of note?

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:12 pm
by Sima Yi 77
Yes forgot to say Historical figures...

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:25 pm
by Crazedmongoose
I'd probably go with Chen Shou's five but replace Yu Jin with Cao Ren.

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:57 pm
by Gray Riders
Elitemsh wrote:Cao Chun, all i know about him is that he was part of the cavalry that chased after and beat Liu Bei at Changban. He then kidnapped Liu Bei's daughters. What he did he do of note?

He has a bio here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21323&hilit=lost+biographies#p532573

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I more or less agree with Chen Shou's list. Cao Ren is the one person I'd consider swapping in, but in the end I think I'd stick with Yu Jin.

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:58 pm
by Rydain
Elitemsh wrote:I generally agree with the five Wei elite being the best Cao Cao had. The only other guy that i can think of that was possibly as good (in Wei) was Cao Ren. Presumably because he was Cao Cao's relative, he was excluded. Cao Ren's a bit of enigma though. I find him difficult to rate and there's some contradiction in one of his key battles.

Cao Chun, all i know about him is that he was part of the cavalry that chased after and beat Liu Bei at Changban. He then kidnapped Liu Bei's daughters. What he did he do of note?


Chen Shou's Wei Five excluded Cao/Xiahou family because the clansmen were listed together on a different scroll of the Sanguozhi.

Cao Chun was a commander of elite cavalry with a distinguished but short record. He had a leading role in Yuan Tan's defeat in 205, and he took part in the 207 campaign that defeated the Wuhuan at White Wolf Mountain. Both of these were notable achievements. Unfortunately, Chun died in 210 without any chance to match the lengthy service and larger scale feats of Wei's heaviest hitters. Comparatively speaking, the brevity of his record keeps him out of Top Five consideration.

Cao Ren was one of the best, but I can't say which of the traditional Wei Five I would replace him with. Apart from familiarity with Zhang Liao and Xu Huang - both of whom I'd probably keep - I haven't studied them quite as much. I'd be curious to hear some discussion on Xiahou Yuan. I know he took a bunch of territory for Wei, but I don't know his record in enough detail for an exhaustive analysis or comparison with others.

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:56 pm
by Zhuanyong
My personal preference, as I mentioned in another thread around here, is Xu Huang being the best of the five elite generals of Wei; followed by Zhang Liao and Zhang He. Seeing that I have become enamored with Yue Jin for his prowess as Cao Cao's best van general, I'd have to keep him as one of the top five generals.

I've never really been too high on Yu Jin and would replace him with Cao Ren, who I believe was good enough to be maybe Cao Cao's fourth best general.

Xu Huang
Zhang Liao
Zhang He
Cao Ren Yue Jin

I could probably throw in someone like Yu Jin but, Zhu Ling was seen by many as being comparable to Xu Huang. He didn't get to do much under Cao Cao, however.

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:57 am
by Sima Yi 77
Rydain wrote:
Elitemsh wrote:I generally agree with the five Wei elite being the best Cao Cao had. The only other guy
Cao Ren was one of the best, but I can't say which of the traditional Wei Five I would replace him with. Apart from familiarity with Zhang Liao and Xu Huang - both of whom I'd probably keep - I haven't studied them quite as much. I'd be curious to hear some discussion on Xiahou Yuan. I know he took a bunch of territory for Wei, but I don't know his record in enough detail for an exhaustive analysis or comparison with others.



The problem with Xiahou Yuan though he served for a number of years as mainly a supplier and logistics for Cao Cao and his campaigns. About 213 after Battle of Jiangling did Xiahou Yuan get more responsibility and field commands such as battle with Ma Chao only after a long fight did Zhang He come out with the victory agaisnt Ma Chao at Mount Qi. He did get victorys against smaller warlords such as Han Sui and Song Jian thus making the tribes of Qiang and Di subjects of Cao Cao. By 216 in command of Cao Cao's defense at Yangping Pass were Xiahou was routed and killed in battle. It shows that this man was a capable Logistics officer but not a field general when he faced a well rounded army resulted in his demise.

Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:09 am
by Korin
a little off-topic but...

Cao Ren has a big rule in Three Kingdoms (2010) series being Cao Cao's right-hand-man basically if u pay attention to the show :D