Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Nov 30, 2013 2:32 pm

mendedties wrote:I really am baffled by all the hate Yu Jin gets for sparing the lives of his men. How is fighting to the death the right thing to do? For honor? What good is that honor going to do dead men? What good is it going to do Cao Cao?

From what I have read, he appears to be one of the, if not the most successful general the Wei kingdom had. Seriously, go check his SGZ bio.


We love our last stands where death is certain but where the hero fights on for his friends/loved ones/cause at the cost of his (or her, but tales usually his). We also love, even if they live/escape, the heroic rearguard that allows others to escape. We always have: the Ballad of Roland, Chang Ban, Gandalf, Dragonlance, Dunkirk, various games. I'm trying to think if there is an Arthurian one as I'm not sure the final battle counts. Possibly less in modern media because nowadays people don't like characters dying or unhappiness endings as if it cheats them but generally, we have loved it throughout history. The nobility of giving everything for something or others (also works for romantic tragedies), the tradegy/pain of seeing the hero or the figure of redemption die, something to aspire too. Any and all incompetence should be ignored and any soldiers either forgotten or part of the mythology/legend.

We also tend to split things. If a plan didn't work then the opposite plan is the instant cure that would have led to victory for example. If a last stand is heroic at all costs and so noble (Pang De, Jiang Wei), if the last stand can redeem a man (Jiang Wei) then any who surrender in such a moment (Yu Jin, Liu Shan) must be morally bad. The novel certainly plays that angle up, adding to the villainy and the heroics and there is a sense of... betrayal to the cause.

To be honest, only 2-3 people in this thread were against Yu Jin due to Fan and been surprised at how few complaints over adding him to DW. I think the argument of seeing surrender in a different light, as a life saving thing, has started to take hold about certain 3k characters.
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby mendedties » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:28 pm

Well, I wasn't referring directly to this thread, I meant all the hate he gets in general. And even if people don't admit it, I find many often are biased against him probably without even realizing it. Admittedly, when I first read the novel, I fell victim to that mindset as well, but since then I've totally turned my view of him around. And, of course, even if his surrender was a selfish act, that still doesn't nullify his amazing record.

I was aware of the cultural ideals, but I guess I underestimate them sometimes. Yet, it remains funny how LGZ managed to successfully spin the blatant contradiction of painting Guan Yu as noble for surrendering to Cao Cao, then treating Yu Jin the way he did. Selective value application at its finest.

So they are finally adding him to the DW roster? Or they already did? I haven't played any of the games since 6, but I would most definitely approve of his much-deserved inclusion, even if only from afar.
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:54 pm

Pming you about top ten generals thread so we don't clutter up the thread :)

mendedties wrote:Well, I wasn't referring directly to this thread, I meant all the hate he gets in general. And even if people don't admit it, I find many often are biased against him probably without even realizing it. Admittedly, when I first read the novel, I fell victim to that mindset as well, but since then I've totally turned my view of him around. And, of course, even if his surrender was a selfish act, that still doesn't nullify his amazing record.


Of course. I do think his reputation in the 3k forums/community in the west has already begun to turn around but for years, his name has certainly been blackened by the surrender. The coward (helped by that novel denying of Pang De due to jealousy), record overlooked so your right.

A lot of figures get defined in one moment and that is often their end or near be. Sports managers, politicians, historical figures. Sometimes that act is glorious and ensures immorality, sometimes it ensures an eternal kicking by those that come after.

In 3k case, the novel Jiang Wei makes bad mistakes and is ill tempered but his death wipes out those flaws from people's memories, Pang De is not the most memorable character but his death makes him a legend. Liu Bei is mostly castigated for novel Yiling and it hangs over his reputation, Yuan Shao and a lot of his officer core are defined by Guan Du, Wang Yun is remembered for his last acts, Dong by the last few years of his life, He Jin by his death.

I was aware of the cultural ideals, but I guess I underestimate them sometimes. Yet, it remains funny how LGZ managed to successfully spin the blatant contradiction of painting Guan Yu as noble for surrendering to Cao Cao, then treating Yu Jin the way he did. Selective value application at its finest.


In fairness, LGZ hits Guan Yu in other ways but it is intresting he feels the need to establish Guan Yu's (and to an extent, Jiang Wei's) surrenders. Then again, Cao Pi treated Yu Jin badly but was a big of Huang Quan. It is human nature though, we view things with a very selective eye. Each kingdom fan will have, likely, at one time raged when another kingdom backstabbed them but defend vigorously any backstab of their own lot.

As a football/soccer fan, I see a lot of transfers. A player joining your club did it for the best of reasons ever and any bad behaviour before hand can be ignored as he battled against the big meany manager who tried to crush the dream. If a player leaves your club, he is a money grabbing (insert choice word here) who kicks kittens and was never that good anyway, good riddance.

So they are finally adding him to the DW roster? Or they already did? I haven't played any of the games since 6, but I would most definitely approve of his much-deserved inclusion, even if only from afar.


Pity you ended on the worst DW game.

Yu Jin announced for DW8XL. Think partly they had all all the other four of the five Wei dragons or whatever the nickname is, he did well in a poll and koei is starting to look at "complex" characters since polls put the likes of Yu Jin and Chen Gong quite high.
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