Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:37 am

Sima Yi says something like 'they are five basic operations for a military force'. From memory: if you can't fight, defend, if you can't defend, flee; if you can't flee, surrender; if you can't surrender, die'. I am not sure whether he said this but it doesn't sound like something he made up. It sounds like a common rule and generals, with education, seemed to obey. Guan Yu could not flee at Xia Pi, does that make him a coward too for surrendering? Yet his enemies didn't seem to discredit him by mentioning it. Cao Ren could not fight at Fan so he defended. But if he could not have defended, would he not have surrendered? Maybe Yu Jin was smarter and better educated than Pang De. It seems to me that Pang De's refusal to surrender was not brave but foolish. If he surrendered then he could have returned to Wei and delivered future service. A wise ruler would have understood. For example: Huang Quan surrendered to Wei but Liu Bei never held it against him and continued to care for his family.
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:04 am

I think Pang De couldn't afford to surrender. His family was in Wei and, unlike Yu Jin, he was new and subject to considerable doubts about his loyalty. His capture and execution ensured the future security of his family whereas Yu Jin's family was likely to be fine whatever happened
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:13 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I think Pang De couldn't afford to surrender. His family was in Wei and, unlike Yu Jin, he was new and subject to considerable doubts about his loyalty. His capture and execution ensured the future security of his family whereas Yu Jin's family was likely to be fine whatever happened


Yups agree with Dong, Elitemsh

Dong Zhou wrote:He was a good vanguard general yes but his reputation is too high for his deeds in my opinion. The manner of death means he gets inflated


Good? i think he was great!! well besides Ding Feng actually but he is great. Yes indeed he has his own pride but i think pride is not the only factor that cause of his action. As already said, he is new kid on the block. If he leave his post, many will doubt him even more.
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:32 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I think Pang De couldn't afford to surrender. His family was in Wei and, unlike Yu Jin, he was new and subject to considerable doubts about his loyalty. His capture and execution ensured the future security of his family whereas Yu Jin's family was likely to be fine whatever happened


I see your point but I'm not sure I totally agree. It's not like Pang De would have been betraying by surrendering, especially since he would have been surrendering with Yu Jin and not alone. I personally think pride motivated Pang De's refusal to surrender, especially considering his insult of Guan Yu and Liu Bei beforehand. He could have just done a Gao Shun. Even if Pang De was new, Cao Cao surely would have appreciated the lack of choice. Besides like Yu Jin, Pang De didn't have to serve Shu and could thus have proved his loyalty that way.
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:53 am

Yeah but if Yu Jin was in disgrace, imagine how much it would be for the newbie?

I agree Pang De seems to have been a proud man though.
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:28 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Yeah but if Yu Jin was in disgrace, imagine how much it would be for the newbie?

I agree Pang De seems to have been a proud man though.


But wasn't at least part of the reason that Yu Jin was humiliated and made to feel disgraced was because people compared it to Pang De? My view is that Pang De's surrender made Yu Jin look worse from some people's perspective. If they had both surrendered them maybe both would have been cut a break.

Cao Cao may have said 'well if my loyal, veteran general surrendered then it's understandable that Pang did too'.
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:02 pm

Maybe and you make a good argument but I fear Pang De's family would not have been well-treated. Not executed but not looked after
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:15 am

Guys food for thought Pang De was in a lose lose situation. Yes, I am sure him being new he was looked at more closely by Cao Cao and his subordiantes yes Cao Cao wanted as many brave and abled body generals to follow him. Pang De was sick and was captured in Hanzhong were Cao Cao gives Pang a General rank title. Think what would have happened to Pang De if he surrendered to Guan Yu and was brought back to Ma Chao and Liu Bei he most likely would have been looked in a different light striped of rank and possible executed for serving the enemy (Cao Cao) then what would happen to his family under Cao Cao. By Pang De refusing to surrender yes it secured his family espically his sons who saw service in Cao's army and gave Pang great honor and no one could doubt his honor for his sacrifice. But his actions forever labled Yu Jin a coward in Wei history (Sorry to all you Yu Jin fans but it did).
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:02 am

Shu was quite willing to recruit Pang De and had a relation in their ranks, I don't think they would have executed him had he surrendered.

No it didn't. It got him labeled a coward by some and the novel which did a great slander job. Surrender is, unfairly, a dirty word even if prevents a massacre of thousands of lives
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Re: Cao Cao's Top 5 Generals Poll

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:11 pm

I know this is getting slightly off topic and shifting to a Pang De topic for the record what do you guys feel would have happened to Pang De if he indeed surrerndered to Guan Yu? Ex. Do you think he would have been able to command as a general in Liu Bei's army again after serving Ma Chao switching sides and serving Cao Cao? Also how many examples of generals or advisors between the three factions Wu, Shu, and Wei do we see advisors/strategists and Generals under Bei, Cao, and Quan go from there original camp to anothers camp back to that original camp??
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