Sun Ce Assassination

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Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Sima Yi 77 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi,


I tried searching this forum for a previous discussion on this topic and didn't find anything. What does the mass feel happened to Sun Ce such as why was he assassinated in 200? Who do you think did it was it people close to him or Cao Cao's people who infiltrated his guard? What would have happened if Sun Ce was not assassinated what do you guys believe he would had done next ex. attack city of Xuchang or attack Chen Deng? How do you feel how Sun Ce died?
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Gray Riders » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:17 pm

There's no mystery about why or who; he was killed by former retainers of Xu Gong who seemed to be after revenge.

I'm one of those who thinks he was going after Liu Biao rather than Cao Cao if he survived, though maybe he'd have tried to whack Chen Deng first.
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:51 am

I recall de Crespigny pointing out the political clout of the Suns and how getting the emperor wouldn't pose any advantages for Sun Ce, thus he was likely to not consider attacking Cao Cao. I too would imagine he had it in for Huang Zu and would likely march up the Yangtze, although Xuzhou, if he ever cleared Chen Deng, is a possibility. But going head to head with Cao Cao? Not really much reason for it at that time.
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:57 am

What was Rafe's reasoning behind Sun Ce not gaining advantages from getting the Emperor?

I also more or less agree Sun Ce would have went for Jing or Xu instead of Xuchang, but that's more strategic.
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:11 am

I interpreted what he said about it in GoS to mean that the Suns weren't high enough up the political machine for people to respect them just for having the emperor around. Sun Jian came from a fairly humble background so most of Wu's respect came from force rather than political authority.

edit: typing from smartphone but it's chapter 3, page 53, paragraph 4. He essentially says people like Cao Cao had the clout for the emperor to matter to them, and compares Sun Ce's case to Dong Zhuo's disastrous run. I'd venture that Sun Ce would have a better run of it, but he was still considered an outsider.
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Zhou Chie » Fri May 18, 2012 12:01 pm

In the old Confuscian styled government, noble blood was of absolute importance and Sun Ce not having any, was a bit of a problem, much like in other countries.
If Sun Ce had survived, had taken down Liu Biao, wonder what his next move would be? I could see difficulties with the succession creeping up, as his younger brothres might start getting ideas of usurping Sun Quan's rightful place, in the Sun family succession.
I also foresee him, wanting to expand, but in which direction? Sry just not educated enough in Chinese history or geography to figure this one out, so yes I am asking you guys cause the question stumped me, and I figured that this topic was also about more than dealing with Liu Biao.
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Sun May 20, 2012 12:29 pm

Sun Quan didn't have a rightful place (aka claim to rule) at the time. Just wanted to point that out...
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon May 21, 2012 4:17 am

In the old Confuscian styled government, noble blood was of absolute importance and Sun Ce not having any, was a bit of a problem, much like in other countries.


You're confusing Confucianism with something else. Confucianism demands virtue amongst rulers, not nobility. Whilst it's true that gentry were preferred (but then there's a pretty big distinction between gentry and nobility), a man of learning and virtue from any background would be accepted.

There would have been a backlash against the Suns ruling as they were considered martial men, rather than men of learning or virtue. But then Cao Cao wasn't exactly considered to be of virtue either, and he certainly wasn't from one of the traditional gentry clans. You can see this in the resistance to him in court by people like Kong Rong, Mi Heng etc.
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Zhou Chie » Thu May 24, 2012 1:20 pm

In a sense, in the old customs, virtue was associated with blood so in that regard that is Confuscianism at its core, because in ancient China I know enough, to know that if a low-born dude came out and was super nice, he'd be rejected on the simple principle that he wasn't 'virtuous' enough, in turn if a ruler had the best blood but was a regular Nero to the commoners but not the nobility, then he'd be regarded as 'virtuous' their history is rife with examples of this.
This is why Cao Cao, is also not considered a virtuous leader, despite his being a pretty virtuous one by modern standards, back then virtue was measured by the family tree, not by whatever standards we have today.
Also, I never said that Quan had a right to the land, only to the headhood of the family.

Anyways, back to the real interesting part; I repeat my question, about where Ce would expand, would he try attack the Liu family holdings, in the west I believe? Wonder what would happen then.
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Re: Sun Ce Assassination

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Thu May 24, 2012 2:13 pm

And like I said, Sun Quan did not have any family or leadership rights until Sun Ce was on his deathbed. Sun Ce had a posthumous son by blood, so had he not died for a while longer, I would assume his son would take his place.

Anyway, if Sun Ce had taken out Liu Biao, based on Sun Quan's own operations, I imagine Sun Ce would have continued expanding south into Vietnam and other fringes. Maybe he would have knocked out Shi Xie. I have my doubts about Sun Ce simply steamrolling Liu Biao though, Quan took Jiangxia only to basically abandon it. Liu Biao wasn't a total pushover.

Now, assuming Cao Cao sees the same results up north, and if Sun Ce *did* manage to conquer Jing, that would be an interesting scenario. I don't think Sun Ce would have settled Jing and Yang enough by 208 to expand into the central plains or Yi.
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