Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

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Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby Mestre Will » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:05 pm

They say people and officers convince Liu Bei to overthrow Liu Zhang because he is a weak ruler , Liu chan let ZGL do everything for him until he die from work hard then later did alot of bad choices and surrender in the end.

The questions are 3 :
Who are the most weak , Liu chan or Liu Zhang ?
If they are our sons and you need say who is your heirs who would be ?
How you opinion about they time as rule , did they do good for you or not ?
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:09 pm

They say people and officers convince Liu Bei to overthrow Liu Zhang because he is a weak ruler


A few disgruntled officers who threw their lot in elsewhere would say that. :wink:

Who are the most weak , Liu chan or Liu Zhang ?
If they are our sons and you need say who is your heirs who would be ?
How you opinion about they time as rule , did they do good for you or not ?


1) Liu Zhang. His reign was never ever stable, he suffered some major revolts. Shan was lazy but could get his officers to do what he wanted.

2) Shan. Seems to be able to keep loyalty even to the end.

3) Whatever Zhang's strengths, his administration wasn't bad and he was able to keep loyalty at the death time and time again, the internal revolts and disagreements were extremely damaging. When having to rely on outside help, things are bad. Liu Shan's reign was mixed, his lazy but kind rule worked well for 30 years but lacked the assertiveness and will to cut out corruption in the last ten. Both made the right call to surrender and spare the lives of thousands.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby samkok911 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm

1) Liu Shan. But he has better support (ZGL & Jiang Wei).

2) Liu Shan. He can manage his man well. He's smarter than we think.

3) Both Bad.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby Mestre Will » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:25 pm

My thoughts are:

1-I would say Liu Zhang because his incompetence is bigger.

2-I would have a hard time in here, probably i would or just pick the elder (who i dont know in this what if who would be, somepeople would say Zhang of course but i dont take the historic age in count this time) or i will just choice someone else and banish thoes 2, seen unfair but i could do it if i want.

3-I have only part of info about thoes 2 but as far i know Liu zhang is not what i call leader and Liu chan lets say lazy and "too young to be wise" however he seen to be better than Liu Zhang.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:15 pm

I don't find Liu Zhang incompetent. Didn't he keep Yi wealthy or at least cut above most other provinces during the era? And I read somewhere on this site that he wiped almost all the bandits in the region. He just didn't judge his men correctly and kept bad officials.

1 - Liu Shan - He was lazy, while Liu Zhang at least fought. Both were decent men, and okay administrators though.

2 - Liu Shan - Even if he was lazy, he did maintain control over a larger army and with maverick officers pretty well for a long time, almost thirty tears, while Liu Zhang lost his lands in just a few years.

3 - Given the circumstances, Liu Shan did okay, his surrender was the best of his decisions and while he did nothing to stop Jiang Wei's war mongering, he did maintain order in Shu. Liu Zhang, a decent administrator, a fairly good man, and talented in his own way. His final defence wasn't terrible, but he didn't seem like a guy who could see the big picture.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:44 pm

The administration wasn't great but it wasn't a disaster either so Zhang had some competence. The problem remains though that his grip on power was always weak, internal stability was not the strong-point of his reign.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:21 pm

Mestre Will wrote:The questions are 3 :
Who are the most weak , Liu chan or Liu Zhang ?
If they are our sons and you need say who is your heirs who would be ?
How you opinion about they time as rule , did they do good for you or not ?


1. i choose Liu Chan. He can defend Cheng Du actually until the arrival of Wu's reinforcement.
2. Hmmmm i choose Liu Zhang. Although he also dolt, but he is not lazy.
3. In the time of war, not good. Especially Liu Chan who stays ignore about the corruption. I've never read about corruption on Liu Zhang's rule. Only complain about his capability to survive against others warlords.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:26 pm

PhoenixRising wrote:
1. i choose Liu Chan. He can defend Cheng Du actually until the arrival of Wu's reinforcement.
.


Really? Because I'm not sure he can with the resources, or lack of, he had under his control once Zhuge Zhan's forces were destroyed so I'm curious as to why you think he can hold out.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:01 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Really? Because I'm not sure he can with the resources, or lack of, he had under his control once Zhuge Zhan's forces were destroyed so I'm curious as to why you think he can hold out.


Based on novel sources, chapter 118:

21 Then Li Hu, Chair of the Secretariat, carried to the victorious Deng Ai the statistical documents of the resources of the kingdom:
22 2,800,000 households, 9,140,000 souls, 102,000 active armed soldiers of all ranks, and 40,000 civil employees. Besides, there were granaries with 4,000,000 carts of grain, treasuries with 3,000 pounds of gold and silver and 200,000 rolls of silks of many qualities, and many unenumerated but precious things in the various storehouses.


If it's true, i think Liu Chan can still fight. Deng Ai armies only few compare to 102,000 soldiers. At least he can hold and send letter to Jiang Wei that the rear of the capital is in danger.
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Re: Liu Chan or Liu Zhang ?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:19 am

Ah, based on the novel. Sorry your posts are usually history based so assumed this one was too :oops:
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