Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Mitsunari » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:03 am

Zhuanyong wrote:I didn't notice. I don't personally see what so many people see as arrogance in Deng Ai. I'd say put yourself in his place, in a time in which you don't have these examples, and you just accomplished something no one else did or could up until then.

I've had the potentially exhausting conversation of what Bofu 'could' have done in the past. The same could be said of his father, Zhou Yu, and a few others. Since this is a thread of what happened rather than what-if, I'd rather go with what and who I have.

Sun Ce just tends to be one of the 3K eras biggest what-ifs.


I think we have LGZ to thank for Deng's 'arrogance', but historically, it's obviously Zhong Hui et al's bitterness at being beaten to delivering the killer blow to Shu. I believe he was simply a tad over-zealous after his landmark victory, and why not...like you said, people should put themselves in his place at that time and gage if they'd act at all differently.

Agreed on Sun Ce. :wink:

For some reason, Guo Huai keeps popping into my head, an greatly under-rated all-rounder perhaps?
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Striga » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:19 am

This is just like the discussion that ended on http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21518&start=80&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=deng+ai+zhong+hui page 8,9.
How did Zhou Yu turn into this?
Guo Huai was important, but he wasn't mentioned correctly by LGZ. In SGYY, he was killed by Jiang Wei (he died peacefully at 68 years of age), and his achievements weren't mentioned. In history, he drove back Jiang Wei, and Zhao Yun, therefore he was able to defeat Jiang Wei's first invasion, and was essential to defeating a few of Zhuge Liang's invasions.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:35 am

Deng Ai's reaction when Shu fell suggests he misread the situation back home and left him alienated, throwing a strop about his plan being rejected put him in trouble.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:05 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Deng Ai's reaction when Shu fell suggests he misread the situation back home and left him alienated, throwing a strop about his plan being rejected put him in trouble.

Well he was no politician but I can't really blame him.
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Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Mitsunari » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:36 pm

Shen Ai wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Deng Ai's reaction when Shu fell suggests he misread the situation back home and left him alienated, throwing a strop about his plan being rejected put him in trouble.

Well he was no politician but I can't really blame him.


Deng's treatment of the Shu people, upon his victory, was exemplary and in accordance with protocol - so this might suggest he was more politically-minded than many think, even though he was a little puffed up by his victory...his behaviour afterwards smacks of a motivated, driven and loyal man, who was wounded by the myopic bureaucracy and distinct lack of faith placed in him. (in view of what he'd achieved). I'd have had a bit of a tantrum too, probably.

Could Guo Huai be considered a competent all-rounder? His SGZ doesn't give much to go on though...
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:57 pm

I think his treatment of Shu civilians more reflects his abilities as a governor which, off the top of my head, I believe he was meant to be skilled. Nor do I think he is plan was incompetent, just very ill-timed.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:02 pm

Mitsunari wrote:
Shen Ai wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Deng Ai's reaction when Shu fell suggests he misread the situation back home and left him alienated, throwing a strop about his plan being rejected put him in trouble.

Well he was no politician but I can't really blame him.


Deng's treatment of the Shu people, upon his victory, was exemplary and in accordance with protocol - so this might suggest he was more politically-minded than many think, even though he was a little puffed up by his victory...his behaviour afterwards smacks of a motivated, driven and loyal man, who was wounded by the myopic bureaucracy and distinct lack of faith placed in him. (in view of what he'd achieved). I'd have had a bit of a tantrum too, probably.

Me too actually, but I meant he did not read the situation he was in very clearly. Boasting really did everything to bring about his downfall, but as you said, how could I blame him?
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Garfunkel » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:03 pm

As the staunch defender of the Sima clan I am required to say Shi or Zhao.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:52 pm

As strategists? Maybe great politicians, but not the best in all round cases. Military was really more of them being good judges of characters. Cao Rui is equal to them in his early days.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:57 pm

@Mittens, Zhuanyong (I need to shorten your name... Yong it is): :lol: I did say, if he lived longer maybe Sun Ce so I agree as well!
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