Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Mitsunari » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:33 pm

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Liu Bei, thus far...in most cases, he was a charismatic and talented politician, an excellent on-field commander, a competent strategist *at heart* and a sound advisor in many respects.

The ultimate all-rounder of the era is The Man though, without a doubt.

EDIT: Finbar posted just as I was typing. lol
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:46 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Is Zhou Yu an all rounder? Yes he did some civil service and he was a skilled, intelligent commander but what else? He wasn't a strategist, more a man who knew how to use other's peoples advice, he wasn't a senior administrator, rarely strayed into political or civil adviser.

Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang are two strong all rounders, Zhu Ran maybe?


I like this answer.

Sun Fin wrote:I would have to say that 'best overall' would have to be Cao Cao; as painful as I find it to admit it. ZGL would comes a close second. I think Zhou Yu, Sima Yi, Liu Bei are all reasonable second tier candidates. I also reckon that if he'd lived longer Sun Ce would have been up there :P


I was with you until that last sentence. :lol: Lu Fan? He was able to read Bofu's motive and was his chief advisor after all. I suppose we'll never know how he could have developed.

No one mentioned Deng Ai. Though he doesn't necessarily fit in the political realm as some of the above mentioned, I think he was more than capable of beating some of the greater generals and minds of that time.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:13 pm

Cao Cao tops everyone here, as usual :P

Aside him, we have Lu Meng, Lu Xun, Zhuge Liang and possibly Deng Ai. I also think Chen Deng deserves to be mentioned.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:51 pm

I wouldn't put Deng Ai up there because he showed how bad he was at politics by getting himself killed by Jin. I don't see Lu Meng being a master in the political arena either.

Chen Deng is a reasonable shout, someone I wouldn't have come up with for sure.

What area do you think Sun Ce was lacking in Zhuanyong? I don't recall seeing Lu Fan as a master of politics and I don't think he was especially successful (or unsuccessful tbf) as a commander.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:50 pm

Ehh, can someone tell me what's Deng Ai's mistake that got him killed? All I know that someone slandered him to the court, Wei Guan or something.. then he got arrested, freed in the way by his troops, then assassinated. Is there something I'm missing/got wrong? My 3k knowledge is rusty after Cao Cao's death :/
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:09 pm

He bragged a lot. I mean a lot after he destroyed Shu. Zhong Hui participated, but he did most of the job. Deng Ai was viewed as a threat because of his talent and his arrogance. Zhong Hui and Jiang Wei fanned the flames until he was captured by Wei Guam. Hui and Wei's men however, disliked them and killed them and went to find Deng Ai, but Deng Ai was killed by then.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:37 pm

Sun Fin wrote:What area do you think Sun Ce was lacking in Zhuanyong? I don't recall seeing Lu Fan as a master of politics and I don't think he was especially successful (or unsuccessful tbf) as a commander.


He lacked in the political area when compared to his brother (that you appall) and needed Lu Fan (which is why I mentioned him) for tactics and strategies. Lu Fan was better in the realm of strategy and politics, historically, than he was as a general. According to Zhu Zhi's SGZ, Bofu was also dependent on him as a tactician as well (I believe).

I wouldn't consider Sun Ce as a candidate for all around top strategist.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Mitsunari » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:50 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:No one mentioned Deng Ai. Though he doesn't necessarily fit in the political realm as some of the above mentioned, I think he was more than capable of beating some of the greater generals and minds of that time.


I mentioned him a page back, along with Mao Jie.

Personally, I think Deng Ai's arrogance is overstated, it's more plausible he was flushed with pride after hammering the final nail into Shu's coffin. Sure, he's no model politician, however his approach to quelling the people of Shu was diplomatic in principle.

And given time, perhaps Sun Bofu would have developed into a more 'complete' all-rounder, given the potential influence of the capable men at his side.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:36 pm

I didn't notice. I don't personally see what so many people see as arrogance in Deng Ai. I'd say put yourself in his place, in a time in which you don't have these examples, and you just accomplished something no one else did or could up until then.

I've had the potentially exhausting conversation of what Bofu 'could' have done in the past. The same could be said of his father, Zhou Yu, and a few others. Since this is a thread of what happened rather than what-if, I'd rather go with what and who I have.

Sun Ce just tends to be one of the 3K eras biggest what-ifs.
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Re: Zhou Yu the greatest all round strategist?

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:35 am

Yang Song.

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(I can't think of anyone who hasn't already been mentioned.)
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