If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

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If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Xu Huang fan » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:13 am

Would Sun Quan still have resisted Cao Cao at Chi Bi?

if so then I believe the results of that battle would not have changed, but i'm asking would Wu have the will to fight that battle?
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Uesugi » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:31 am

You're right, the battle would have had the same outcome because Liu Bei and his army had nothing to do it, historically.

Hmm... Considering that Zhuge Liang was one of the three men who persuaded Sun Quan to go to war against Cao Cao whilst under the service of Liu Bei, this is really a question of Lu Su and Zhou Yu's ability to convince Sun Zhongmou to do battle. I'm going to say that they are capable of such a task, but I do not have much evidence to support that xD Hopefully Sun Quan would remember his late brother...

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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:15 am

In fairness to Shu, Liu Bei led 20,000 men at Chi Bi.
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:20 am

Liu Bei may also have provided useful intel regarding Cao Cao's forces. Let's not forget that Wu whilst obviously having a stronger army and more resources than Liu Bei, were absent of some things. Firstly, Liu Bei knew Cao Cao personally and had spent some time in his camp. Secondly Liu Bei had fought against Cao Cao a number of times before Chi Bi. So he may have a kind of knowledge/experience to offer which every Wu officer to this point lacks. That's why i believe that Shu played an important role at least in convincing Sun Quan to fight because i believe they may have known things he didn't. After all that was the purpose of Lu Su's visit to them after Liu Biao's death right?
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:56 pm

I reckon they would. It was Zhou Yu who convinced Sun Quan to fight and I think he'd have had that view with or without Shu's aid.
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:48 pm

If im not mistaken wasn't there a land battle involved that was under the command of Liu bei's forces? i think Cao Cao would have still made this error, and sun quan would have still won the naval battle, but i think the blow would have been less significant because it was now just 1 faction winning its place not 2.
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby dan99990 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:11 pm

Anyone have details about the land battle? I've only ever heard it mentioned in passing, but I'm curious if anyone has seen descriptions of who was there/what happened specifically, etc.
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Yang Dayang » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:34 am

71: Shan Yang’s Yearly Record of His Excellency states, “His Excellency’s boats and warships were therein burnt by Bei, and His Excellency led the army, by way of the Huarong road, in retreat on foot. They came upon muddy ground, the road could not be traveled and the skies also blew a great wind. His Excellency employed the weary soldiers to retrieve plant detritus to fill it in, so that those on horseback therefore were able to get through. The men on horseback trampled upon the exhausted infantrymen, who became mired in the mud, and there were a great many dead. Once the army had managed to get through, His Excellency showed great happiness, and when all of his generals inquired about it, he replied, “Liu Bei and I are peers. However, his strategy was deficient in taking place at night; in the event that he had set the fires in the morning, I would presently be walking alone.” Bei pursued him to try and set additional blazes but was unable to catch him.


They simply pursued Cao Cao, who managed to get away. It seems the most casualities his forces suffered were due to trampling, etc..

The novel presents a different story, with Shu officers ambushing Cao Cao one by one, each killing his troops and it ends with Guan Yu who lets Cao Cao pass freely.
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Erdrick » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:28 am

Yang Dayang wrote:
71: Shan Yang’s Yearly Record of His Excellency states, “His Excellency’s boats and warships were therein burnt by Bei, and His Excellency led the army, by way of the Huarong road, in retreat on foot. They came upon muddy ground, the road could not be traveled and the skies also blew a great wind. His Excellency employed the weary soldiers to retrieve plant detritus to fill it in, so that those on horseback therefore were able to get through. The men on horseback trampled upon the exhausted infantrymen, who became mired in the mud, and there were a great many dead. Once the army had managed to get through, His Excellency showed great happiness, and when all of his generals inquired about it, he replied, “Liu Bei and I are peers. However, his strategy was deficient in taking place at night; in the event that he had set the fires in the morning, I would presently be walking alone.” Bei pursued him to try and set additional blazes but was unable to catch him.


They simply pursued Cao Cao, who managed to get away. It seems the most casualities his forces suffered were due to trampling, etc..

The novel presents a different story, with Shu officers ambushing Cao Cao one by one, each killing his troops and it ends with Guan Yu who lets Cao Cao pass freely.



I will draw your attention to the first sentence of the record, (Cao Cao's, I presume), that you quoted: "His Excellency’s boats and warships were therein burnt by Bei..." From the collection of bio's, there is a naval battle, and a fair number of soldiers/sailors perished on the boats (or the water trying to get away from then burning boats).

Insofar as to the original question, I don't think Sun Quan would have fought without Liu Bei's intel/alliance/Zhuge's convincing- first of all, whether Cao would have stopped at the river instead of charging straight across to continue the blitz he took through Jingzhou is in question- once he landed a significant beachhead, Wu was likely in mortal danger. Secondly, Lu Su would not have gotten the support of Zhuge Liang in the Wu court, nor the intel Liu Bei could provide. Thirdly, Lu Su would have been greeted by Cao Cao or his proxy- would Zijing still would have been pro-resistance in those circumstances? And lastly, would Mengde have been so gung-ho about taking Wu without Xuande's side-thorniness?
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Re: If Liu Bei was killed by or surrendered to Cao Cao

Unread postby Zhao Yun '87 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:37 am

I think a large part of Cao Cao's strategy was to beat them at their own game. It would guarantee that after the battle they stood little chance of resistance. Hence why he camped directly across from their established camp instead of forcing a crossing in any number of locations.
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